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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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ilpars    RE:Gut check time   6/28/2004 2:29:12 AM
Turkish government announced that; Turkey never answers to demands of terrorists. The problem with terrorsits that they do not act rational. They may indeed kill these 3 workers as religion always secondary issue with terrorists. They want acknowledgement; Turkey will never give it to them.
 
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ilpars    RE:Americans must respect Islam - elcid   6/28/2004 2:43:20 AM
"These conditions are self correcting in the sense they were improper, illegal, and bound to come out and cause a disciplinary process. It was a lack of maturity and wisdom on the part of many persons that let these things happen in the first place. BUT IT WAS US SOLDIERS who reported these matters and caused them to get addressed." Even in democracies these kind of atrocities can be seen. But the good thing is in a democracy if one has courage to stand up against illegal and unjust activities there is always an open channel for him. And usually legal systems of democracies are effective enough to handle the incident. I hope investigation can go to the top to reveal the real responsible ones who let this happened. I do not think it goes as high as Rumsfeld. I do not why democrats trying to make him a scapegoat probably it is political. As much as I can see the system works. But the real problem is I think lies elsewhere. Someone in the command chain has thinked that prisoners at Abu-Ghalip do not possess the rights of ordinary prisoners. I do not think that his line of thinking is unique to one person. As long as everybody on ouýr side underrstand the fact that, the enemy is also human and have legal rights; our war can not be won. There must be a differance between them and us. This war is not about religion or culture. It is between civilization and terrorism.
 
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ilpars    RE:Americans must respect Islam - caribsea   6/28/2004 2:47:31 AM
"When will Muslims learn to respect other people? Beheading people is offensive to us, as is regarding non-Muslim life as of less value than Muslim life; homicide bombings, honor killings and beatings of women are also offensive to us Americans." All of these are offensive to us also. When will you stop religious discrimination. These are atrocities done by humans. Religions could not stop human cruelty and rutlessness in the past and it will not stop them in the future. These ruthless men do not care if their religion forbid what they are doing. They are doing these in spite of this. For them religion is just a tool.
 
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ilpars    OnWatch tete-a-tete and Facism   6/28/2004 3:05:54 AM
OnWatch, may be too blind to read what I have written. So I am rewriting it again. All of the 4 dead and 21 wounded at last week's bombings were Muslims. At last year's bombings many Turkish Jews, Turks and UK diplomatic personnel has been killed. But I was not referring to them when I said LAST WEEK'S. (I hope he got it this time.) "Faith has no meaning when it is blind. One must choose himself what to believe." Bektasi 12th century Turkish Islamic scholar. OnWatch need not worry. My faith is not blind. I believe everybody who are good will go to heaven no matter what his religion is. Unlike some(OnWatch can take this to himself), I do not value a person according to his religion. By the way, my friend was in MBA program in an American univercity at the time. More than that he is not even a religious person. Of course facists do not care about these kind of details. Only labels are mattered to them. Before 1945; all of them were anti-semite. Before 1960; all of them were racist. But in today's world anti-semitism or racism are not popular. But look here are Muslims. So, now facists have found their new label to hate. "Muslims".
 
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Thomas    RE:ilpars    6/28/2004 4:24:58 AM
I think ilpars is a very valuable member of this board. I've been on holiday (in Turkey), so I've only read a few comments. Ilpars makes the extreemly important point. We must not accept the muslim extremist's agenda of making it a question of islam versus christianity. It is a question of civilisation agains thuggery. Wearing a headscarf has nothing to do with being a good muslim woman. This preoccupation with external symbolism, made a christian bishop say: "To much piety and to little faith." The abuses in the Iraqi prison is a constant source of amazement to me: It is a constant lesson of military history, that the worst atrocities are committed not by combat troops, but the forces of inferior quality, that follow when combat is over. We have know that at least since the the prison commander of the Andersonville POW camp in the american civil war was convicted as the first of warcrimes. We KNOW the problem, why haven't we come to grips with it yet?????
 
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doggtag    RE:thomas   6/28/2004 4:45:21 AM
good points, thomas. regarding "Andersonville": For those who don't know, the TNT miniseries adaptation was excellent. The book was far better. For anyone wanting to know what REAL prisoner mistreatment is, I highly recommend it. (if you don't have time to read the book, at least go buy the DVD!...of course, it was probably manufactured in china!) .
 
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elcid    All of these are offensive to us also.   6/28/2004 5:03:52 AM
This quote lifted from an Islamic poster is quite true. Islam also forbids suicide, yet you know the radicals are using suicide bombers. Islam as a whole is very complex - as complex as Christianity and involving as many as 2 billion people. [Since they disagree among themselves about who is "really" Islamic, they never claim that many. Shia do not count Sunni, as a rule. That kind of thing.] There are a wide variety of Islamic sects, and they have many forms of practice. In most of the world you cannot tell a Muslim by their dress, by their public behaviors, etc. Many Muslims are pretty secular, as in the Balkins, and many are very comfortable with Western norms, such as shaking hands, sex before marriage, etc. In fact, this is what infuriates the conservatives.] The bottom line here is that it is in fact discriminatory to make a general assertion about all Muslims. The very definition of prejudice is to "pre judge" and put all into one box without evidence about this person in particular. The largest Islamic nation in the world, by population, is Indonesia. But you would not be uncomfortable in the company of a devout Muslim girl from Jakarta. She does pray, and even wears a prayer shawl, but ONLY alone, in the privacy of her bedroom. She speaks English as well as you do, wears western clothers, and has international sources of information that make her as potentially informed as you are. She is not radical and would condemn any terrorist act. [And I am describing a real girl I know - not a hypothetical one.] My sister in law is Muslim, and she lives in harmony with her Christian son, and his family. Muslims who are able to read Islamic holy write (there are several forms, and the Osama bin Laden crowd tries to keep them unable to read Arabic in the Madrassas - which is sacralidge by traditioal Islamic rules) are told the Jewish prophets are "the lesser prophets of God" and that Jesus is one of only two "great prophets of God." In fact, Jesus is mentioned in the Holy Koran several times more often than Mohammad is.
 
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Thomas    RE:All of these are offensive to us also.   6/28/2004 7:05:16 AM
A small point: The Danish and Turkish flag is red with a religious symbol on it. To my knowledge we have not comitted atrocities in each others countries for quite some time.
 
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doggtag    RE:All of these are offensive to us also.   6/28/2004 7:15:46 AM
I am also in agreement that not all followers of Islam are as misguided as others. It's not really any different that proponents of old Catholic/Christian beliefs in Europe and American colonies burning witches and heretics at the stake, or using a guillotine on someone. Just because each religion has its share of "cancers", that doesn't mean the entire religion in itself is sick..
 
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ilpars    One Turkish atrocity against Denmark in History; and Crescent symbol   6/28/2004 7:31:01 AM
At 16th century, a Denmark renegade naval officer have joined the Algiers Corsair brotherhood. What is not widely known is many of the Barbary coast (Algiers, Tunis, Tripolitania) corsairs are European renegades. That Danish corsair gave the info to Corsairs that Iceland a Denmark colony is not defended. Led by this renagade, Algiers corsairs raided Iceland twice. They captured the most valuable prize in Iceland, beatiful Norse girls. Although most of the leaders of the expedition was European renagades who knows the North Atlantic waters well; Algiers was a part of Ottoman Empire. (Barbary Coast Corsair crews were always multinational. It was a Corsair brotherhood policy to unite the brotherhood more closely.) After these 2 raids, Denmark allocated a small fleet to defend Iceland. The raids never repeated. ----------------------------------------- By the way Crescent is not a religious symbol. It was a symbol of Byzantium empire. Like many European countries used Eagle "the symbol of Roman Empire" in their flags; many Muslim countries used Crescent "the symbol of Byzantium empire" in their flags. Especially Ottomans used as a propaganda tool for Greeks to show that Ottoman Empire is a successor state of Byzantium empire.
 
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