Pars wrote: "Never say never. In the long run Europe needs Turkey. For many reasons" Well, we will see. But both Europe and Turkey will take advantage from close cooperation. There is no need for a EU-membership. Turkey would be in danger to loose its identity too. And by the way. At the moment there are millions of eastern Europeans going to migrate to western Europe. And the Ukraine is waiting too (that a country I see as an EU-memberstate in about 10 to 15 years). I like Turkey and the turks and their brave army. But Turkey - in my view - do not belong to Europe at all. Neither geographically (just 1 % of Turkey belongs to our continent) nor its culture (the european muslim culture ended in the battle for vienna won by Prince Eugene and in the long war against the muslims in Spain). So let's live in peace. Let's be allies. But let both of us stay on our own.

>>Islam is against revenge. There are several prays about this subject. Besides if you look at history which I guess you rarely do; none of the persons who mocked Hz. Muhammed has been killed when they are captured.<< (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 5, Book 98, #193) Narrated 'Abdullah: While the Prophet was in the state of prostration, surrounded by a group of people from Quraish pagans. 'Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait came and brought the intestines of a camel and threw them on the back of the Prophet . The Prophet did not raise his head from prostration till Fatima (i.e. his daughter) came and removed those intestines from his back, and invoked evil on whoever had done (the evil deed). The Prophet said, "O Allah! Destroy the chiefs of Quraish, O Allah! Destroy Abu Jahl bin Hisham, 'Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a. 'Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait 'Umaiya bin Khalaf (or Ubai bin Kalaf)." Later on I saw all of them killed during the battle of Badr and their bodies were thrown into a well except the body of Umaiya or Ubai, because he was a fat person, and when he was pulled, the parts of his body got separated before he was thrown into the well. Uqba bin Abi Mu’ayt was captured at the battle of Badr and ordered executed by Muhammad himself. He is but one example of people who mocked Muhammad that got killed for doing so. I only needed one example to negate your "none of the persons who mocked Hz. Muhammed has been killed when they are captured" comment. I can cite 20 or so more cases of Muhammad's personal revenge on those who dared mock him that if you'd like. But, let's get back to our discussion on "jihad" and your idea that it means "defensive warfare," and the other historically discreditted notion that "there is no compulsion in Islam" forcing conversions at the threat of a sword... "Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom." Is the above quote, which is the text of the letter Muhammad sent to the Julanda brothers of Oman currently on display at Sohar Fort in the Sultanate of Oman, a threat? I think you'll find I know more about your religion than you do, Pars.

Turkeys membership in EU is absurd idea at the moment. Human rights situation is so bad that it would be insane to think that the membership could be approved, the treating of minorities is another thing. No way, EU has zounds of sane reasons to say no at the moment, never to mention emotional ones. Personally I dont think that there are any fundamental reasons why Turkey (or Russia) couldnt join EU, but before such can happen it must fulfill the requirements. At the moment Turkey is developing country with bad record in human rights, minority rights, environmental issues and labourers´rights. Even Belorussia is closer for they have only one fundamental obstacle, their president... the rest is piece of cake. Turkey has been told what to do to gain acceptability, but in vain. A lot of work has been done, but some with a half heart. We do not need any new countries that try to stress the limits every now and then when they can. Cheers.

>>Look at old Yugoslavia. It was a peaceful country once. Then Western powers Balkanised that country. See the mess the result is.<< this was not the fault of the western powers, which tried their utmost to keep Yugoslavia together. The Slovinia and Croatia never wanted to be part of Yugoslavia. The same imperial bureaucrats who buggered up the Middle East decided that they were to be included whether they wanted it or not. Tito kept them together as long as he was alive. It was a delicate balance, depending upon the good will of all parties, after he died. Slobodon Milosevic, however, set that train wreck in motion once he decided to gain power as a Serbian racist/fascist.

Anatolia, culturally was always a part of Europe. A more proper seperation of Europe and Asia is the Taurus Mountains. Then 100% of Turkey is in Europe. Ottoman Empire was always considered an European power from its founding to end by all of other nations be it Asian or European. For an example: Ottoman Rulers had dynatic ties (Royal Marriages) with Byzantine Empire, Serbian Kings and Crimean Khans but had no dynatical ties with any Asian power. Another example are the European-Wide agreements such as Vienna conferance at 1815. Prince Eugene will be a century later. Besides even if Ottomans have taken Vienna they could not hold it. West European warfare was ahead of the East European warfare (Ottoman, Poland, Russia) at the time. Besides Turks are not the only Muslims in Europe. Bosnians and Albanians are also 90% Muslims.

Human right conditions were not that good 5 years ago. Today it is good. Police force of couse needs additional training but it is nothing like European media shows it. There are many misinterpreated news going on there. In Turkey payment that employees got is much lower than Europe and employees have less rights.(They still have all the fundemenental rights). By less rights I mean employees mostly work more than 40 hours a week. Companies can fire them without a notice if there is a cause. But I do not think that was ever mentioned as a problem for EU. Please read the latest reports of EU commission about Turkish entrance. In the report it says Turkey needs improvements in several points but none of them is serious enough to deny Turkish entrance. Turkey have accomplished all of the criterias of EU.

Pars wrote: "Turkey have accomplished all of the criterias of EU" Sorry, but nobody in the EU sees it that this way (not even the most Turkey-friendly politicians - there remains scores of obstacles). Even if it it would be true many EU-states would vote against a turkish membership anyway. You will see for sure some years ahead.

"Human right conditions were not that good 5 years ago. Today it is good. Police force of couse needs additional training but it is nothing like European media shows it. There are many misinterpreated news going on there." But you must also remember that some 5 years is a short period of time. And still the situation of Kurds is hardly comparable to anything in the rest of Europe (maybe to some extent with gypsies in certain countries but still). One thing to be done is to end violence, that would show some proggress. "In Turkey payment that employees got is much lower than Europe and employees have less rights.(They still have all the fundemenental rights). By less rights I mean employees mostly work more than 40 hours a week. Companies can fire them without a notice if there is a cause. But I do not think that was ever mentioned as a problem for EU." EU insists that certain labour rights and conditions must be comparable, because of the rights and because of the fact that no country can gain excessively by trambling on labourers´rights. Fight against child labour is still a work in progress in Turkey and people like Salih Kilic have paid attention to labourers rights. Never to mention that grey sector in Turkey is estimated to be few dozen percent of the whole economy and about half of the employees lack social security. Another thing is freedom of speech which is still pretty relative thing for Kurds, and labour union activists, for example. "Please read the latest reports of EU commission about Turkish entrance. In the report it says Turkey needs improvements in several points but none of them is serious enough to deny Turkish entrance. Turkey have accomplished all of the criterias of EU." I know the reports, but from my point of view, they are all too kind and look more of gesture of goodwill than serious ones. Please notice that I have nothing against Turkey, I just believe that your country isnt ready yet, a lot of work is still to be done and I believe that this is the view most European politicians have. Those signs of praising should be rather taken as encouragements to continue the path Turkey has gone for few years. My prediction is that its going to take at least 5-10 years before anything actually happens. EU is all too busy with new member countries while yet more are coming.. so I think that Turkeys turn will come about the same time when we start serious talks with Belorussia and Ukraina. [Kuchma wont last long, I hope, I´d pray if I werent godless!] Cheers!

Well, Turkish politicians agree that Turkish entrance will not be soon. But there were EU guarantees to Turkey that when all conditions are met, Turkey will be accepted. 10 or 15 years later is not a long period for Turkey. But, there are some circles in Europe which says Turkey could never be part of EU. This is disturbing. If EU refused Turkey just because they do not want Turks; well this will be a total discrimination. EU will lose much and gain nothing.

seeing how we're not making videos while chopping your heads off, i dont think that you should be complaining. the fact that we're giving these prisioners protection by classifying them as prisioners of war is amazing to me. terrorists havent signed ANY treaties regarding treatment of prisioners and since they're not bound to a state, we could have cut them up if we wanted to. but what do we do, we take the higher road.