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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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chemist    RE:Educating Sorkoi.-mike golf   12/2/2004 3:37:54 PM
So, this is just a confirmation of Sarge's point then? Okay. Makes sense..
 
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mike_golf    RE:Educating Sorkoi.-mike golf   12/2/2004 4:18:12 PM
Chemist wrote: "So, this is just a confirmation of Sarge's point then? Okay. Makes sense." Exactly, backing up Sarge's point that empires of conquest do worse at the center than at the periphery with historical observation from another empire of conquest.
 
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Nomad32    No Islamic Persians in 650   12/2/2004 4:25:06 PM
Sorkoi there were no Persians under Islam that early. The Sassanid (Persian) Empire wasn't exterminated until 642, and it is higly unlikely that the Persian nobility would assimilate that quickly. You won't really see any Persian muslims until Abbasid times after 750. Incidentally give me a couple of references on challenges to Parker's thesis on Military revolution. Read his book several times and it dovetails nicely into McNeill's Rise Of the West and Rursuit of Power writing. Would still be interested in seeing some contrary views..
 
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chemist    RE: Chemist: Busted paradigms, fairness and accuracy   12/2/2004 4:32:31 PM
Sorry to be stingy and pick and choose here, "12. This where Cocoonboy shows his ignorance (despite his claims to be an recent expert on Islam). There is no central leadership of Islamdom- there is no established church- so there is practical problem of who or what is going issue a ‘collective condemnation of terrorism’. Having said that there are many Muslims who have condemned terrorism repeatedly." How is this different than Christendom during the Reconquista? Sure, much of Europe was Christian and paid some sort of homage to Rome and the Papacy, but it was still a rather fractured and and infighting group. It gets worse after the Reformation and Counter-reformation in the splintered nature of Christianity. Yet, you still would have to agree that 'the Christian World' or the Judea-Christian tradition peoples have enmasse voiced a unified position on something like, say, slavery. That's what Cocoonboy, and alot of us, are waiting for. There may be PRACTICAL as opposed to ideological-theological reasons for this(Zarqawi and his video chastizing anyone not down with his Jihad comes to mind in this respect). There is a decentralized nature to the hierarchy of Islam, which I find somewhat akin to the Orthdox Church. Yet, the Orthodox Church, RC, and the many forms of Protestantism can still get together and make pronouncements about what it means to be Christian. What impediment is there within the many sets of Islam that prevent this, beyond Zarqawi and the guys who founded sects lke Wahhabi? "5. I am not sure about Enlightenment bit (see above). Also I am not sure how you return Hellenic texts from Islamicate lands: firstly because many of those texts emerged in regions which now were part of Islamdom, and secondly there was no Hellenistic civilization to return those texts to. The Romans had taken care off that." Okay, the Renessaince means, re-enlightenment. Renessaince and Enlightnemnet are used interchangablely where I am. Does this clear up alot? The key element of the Islam saved western civ argument is that the return of Western, largely Greek, knowledge to western empires after the fall of Moorish Spain lands to Ferdinand and Isabella started a rebirth of Western science and intellectualism. Essentually, Islam was the care taker of of it since it would've been lost or destroyed without them. That concept is false as others have shown. The work of Galen hadn't been forgotten in Byzantium or in the Brit Isles. The knowledge of things like Galen was still being circulated amoungst the edges of the old Roman Empire and was still existant at its heart(Rome, geez, I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Vatican Archives yet. Immense and antique, and largely unknown to those of us(including myself) outside RC inner circles.). Remember I'm arguing against the position of 'give them credit, they saved all this knowledge from your wars'. I think we've been able to collectively dance the Mexican hat dance on this concept. Not to dengirate Islam and Moslems, but just to try and get things straight. Even Sarge, Cocoon is hopeless(lol), would say that Moslems shouldn't be bombed into the stone age for simply being. But he wouldn't couch his argument against it in 'they were/are a great culture'. No, instead he'd note that they're human beings and as such don't deserve to die so long as they don't make themselves violent threats(we can all tolerate economic threats, Japan was buying American real estate pretty quickly back in the early 80's). Even Cocoon would go along with this I'm sure. He's Andrew 'Dice' Clay half the time(ohhhhhhh!), but he's not unhinged. "9. Similarly, there is no need project backwards in time the current geopolitical situation in which the world is dominated by Western conglomerate state and its culture. To do would seem to be a form of pride in your terms if I have understood you correctly." Oh, then I suggest you don't read Hanson. Drive you nuts it would. Apparently you don't agree with exceptionalism arguments. Fair enough. THat explains why there's so many torqued noses around here. Half of your opponents believe strongly in exceptionalism. Pride? Yeah, it proll'y cuts both ways. "4. I agree the Dark Ages were not Dark - in fact on world level you have Islamdom, China and India thriving- the what people normally refer to by the Dark Ages was basically end of the classical Roman literate culture in the western part of the former empire and while HISC is correct to claim that it lived on in monasteries etc. in Iona and the British isles but as you got closer to the lands ravaged in post-Roman collapse less of that learning circulated. But I would accept the picture of the Dark Ages is exaggerated in relation to past version of Dark Ages. This of course does not mean that much of North-Western Europe was the geopolitical equivalent of Byzantium or Islamdom at the time. To suggest otherwise is engage in a fantasy. " TO a point, true. But
 
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Sheikh Salaam    RE:Sheikh Salaam : Make a stand.    12/2/2004 6:33:09 PM
Islam is not fascist. Hitler was an infidel. He could not win because he did not submit to Allah. He did not know the prophetcies so he could not fulfil them. Did any trees or stones call to Hitler. No he was was juat a man, not a Muslim. He cannot answer on the day of the resuraction. The trees will call and the stones will say. But the were silent for Hitler. He could not kill all the Jews. He was not Muslim.
 
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Sheikh Salaam    RE:Americans have been disrespecting Islam for 200 years - Hey, Salami   12/2/2004 6:38:54 PM
You are wrong and disrespectful Swhitebull you say curseful things that offind Muslims but you cannot defend that Americans stole all of Mediterranean from Islam. If not for Muslims, Christofer Columbus would not find America on Thanksgiving Day. He would be lost at sea looking for dragons.
 
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Sheikh Salaam    RE:Duplicating the Obvious   12/2/2004 6:54:28 PM
You say false infidel things Arabs do not hate Jews and Islam worships Allah not death. You read many things in Torah where Allah raised many peoples to wipe out Jews when they turned from Allah. Arabs are just but one group called by Allah to do this task but we have Prophet Muhammad who listened to Allah.
 
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sanman    Oh Looky, a real fundie   12/2/2004 7:12:47 PM
Woo, a real live fundamentalist. Thanks for your comments, Sheikh Salaam. Now I don't have to bother getting a subscription to AlJazeera. Anyway, regardless of the trivial debates on how many naked virgins Hitler will see in the afterlife, I would point out that Bin Laden and AlQaeda aren't upset at the mayhem going on in Iraq -- rather they are gleeful about it, since they feel it will make their own groups more popular. This is their "politique du pire", as the French like to say. The problem with the terrorist guerrillas is that they can't do anything beyond harass. They can't mass for any final victorious attack, since by doing so they will only present a significant target for destruction. So they'll just do hit and run until they run out of steam. Meanwhile, as time passes, more and more security is handed over to the local Iraqi forces, who aren't under the same political constraints as multinational forces. Remember, Saddam himself was able to crush jihadist challengers quite handily. He would have continued to rule to a ripe old age, if the larger USA hadn't turfed him out. So I would tell you that time is not on AlQaeda's side. Their jihad doesn't seem to be spreading anywhere.
 
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Herc the merc    SHeikh Salami?   12/2/2004 7:38:59 PM
Could you please explain Islam & the reason for this Jihad. I am not familiar with "TRUE Islam". Also according to you what lies in the future according to the Koran, will all the infidels be destroyed, hey just as a joke will all credit debt's be cancelled. You see if you want to win Jihad against Americans let me show you the way, here we have loans for everything car, house, tv's whatever, and guess what these infidels charge interest!!! This is illegal per the Koran. Now if you take over would you forgive all our debt and let us keep everything?? Is this fair in Islam. If it is everyone in this board will join you Sheikh. Well SWhitebull may change his name to SWhitearabhorse. Enlighten us!!
 
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Nomad32    RE:Americans have been disrespecting Islam for 200 years - Hey, Salami   12/2/2004 7:40:32 PM
Actually the Turks stole it from the Byzantines. The Venetians/Hapsburgs took it back a bit later. The Tripoli pirates were never recognized as suzerians over the Med Sea, the Europeans simply considered it easier/cheaper to buy them off. The Early US didn't have as much money so we sent Marines.
 
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