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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Americans must respect Islam   10/25/2004 12:16:33 PM
AGC wrote: "Why should we respect your mythology?" Because respect for all religions is part of our law and culture. Identify the enemy for who they are, don't label everyone who follows a specific religion as the enemy.
 
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sanman    RE:Americans must respect Islam   10/25/2004 4:59:33 PM
Mike, does your tolerance including respecting misogynists? I'll tell you that most people aren't criticizing all Muslims, but rather are criticizing Islamic extremism and regressive fundamentalism. I see no need to defend the veil, which is not based on the idea of protecting women, but is based on the idea of treating women as property to be covered up under a tarp. Some apologists for Islamic fundamentalism make these "progressive" claims, but when you ask if a woman should be allowed to become a priest, they'll vigorously shake their heads. I had a Muslim buddy from work who was a nice guy, but we once had an argument on the question of who goes to heaven first if a man and wife die at the same time. He absolutely insisted that the wife cannot enter heaven until her husband does, because Allah will only allow the man to enter first. Well, I think Muslims need a reform movement, just like Christians, Jews and other religions have had, because this Man-first crap, and all the misogynism is a bunch of garbage that needs to be thrown out. Look at things like Muslim honor-killings, look at how this happens even in countries like Turkey, and the courts won't even prosecute these scumbags who kill their daughters, sisters, cousins, aunts who "dishonor" the family. This is "modern Islam"? Hey, I don't think Turkey should get into the EU until they clean up their act. And no excuses about how it's all "Muslim-bashing". Sorry, but there's plenty there to criticize in a fair and objective way.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Americans must respect Islam   10/25/2004 6:09:38 PM
Sanman wrote: "Mike, does your tolerance including respecting misogynists?" Of course it doesn't. But separate the religious problem, in general, from the secular/political/military problem, in general. This is one of the key steps to reform. Of course, the Muslims have to decide to do this too. But as long as we are putting the religious/political/military problems all in the same basket there will be no incentive to reform the religion. I support the intervention in Afghanistan just based on human rights issues caused by Sharia, regardless of the Al Qaeda presence there. But you will certainly not make the situation better without some tolerance for Islam. Islam is a product of the culture, focus on the culture. Cause, not symptom.
 
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Herc the merc    RE:Americans must respect Islam   10/25/2004 6:17:47 PM
Americans do respect Islam, it is some Islamic groups that need to join the rest of the world, and respect their fellow beings.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Americans must respect Islam   10/25/2004 6:29:59 PM
Herc wrote: "Americans do respect Islam, it is some Islamic groups that need to join the rest of the world, and respect their fellow beings" I was responding to AGC Herc, not you. And Sanman seemed to need some help clarifying the issue too.
 
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elcid    RE:Americans must respect Islam   10/26/2004 2:40:28 PM
I know Southern Baptists who think it is wrong for a woman to be a preacher. But I long belonged to a Southern Baptist Church that ordained women. One can disagree about such a matter and still be of the same denomination as well as of the same religion. [The Baptists say "it is not a salvation issue" so it is acceptable to have your own opinion]. I know a liberal Yale academic (woman) Muslim who changed her view on the veil because of what Muslim women (in the USA) told her about the experience. Perhaps your view is not the only rational, or even liberated one? In the USA, at least, the veil is not required: would you forbid it? Islam is a great religion, and it may have more followers than any other (the contender is Christianity). It comes in many flavors and variations. There is no way it would be so large if it was radical to the point of dysfunctionality like the AQ folks and their allies are.
 
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loader    History of this problem   10/29/2004 4:57:31 PM
For hundreds of years Moslems believed the Austrian Empire would be defeated, Vienna captured and conversion minded conquest would continue as it had until the whole world was Moslem (The Ottomans/Turks treated conquered peoples like Jews and Christians far better than Christians ever treated Jews and Moslems historically). After the Turks came into power, all contact with the none-moslem world (except for war) was deeply frowned upon. It was a great shock to the Ottomans when, in the 19th centurey, they fully realized how far they had fallen behind technolocialy, economically and politically. It challanged their whole view of the world and religion. Moslems had the blessing of God, so their empire should prosper shouldn't it? The Ottoman empire crumbled and things got even worse for many Arab countries. There were only two possible explainations: 1. Somehow, some basic ideas accepted by most Moslems as doctrine were simply not true, worldwide conversion would never happen and the fault for problems in their counties was mostly due to their own corrupt leaders (something that often happens when a tribal culture transitions too quickly to modern political institutions) (You will notice that the Arab countries that are doing very well are mostly monarchies) or 2. The problems Moslems have are because they have strayed from true Islam. The only way to be strong again is to embrace fundamental Islam and rid their lands of the Infidel (Israel- and you have to admitt, Israel didn't ask permission of those who already lived there if they could take over). Dictators in Moslem nations of course advocated and advertised the second reason. This directed public anger (for poverty and corruption) that would normally be directed at them, to the West, especially America. Furthmore, shame is about the worst thing a Muslem can feel. Reason one carried with it personall responsibility, and therefore shame for the situations they were in. Option 2 didn't. Well, how do you change the mindset of an entire culture?
 
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elcid    RE:History of this problem   10/29/2004 7:31:50 PM
How do you change the mindset of an entire culture? I am a Jeffersonian: education. In note that in the largest Muslim country in the world, the wealthy send their Children to Christian private schools, where they are treated very well. This is one way.
 
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sanman    RE:History of this problem   10/30/2004 8:44:45 AM
Look at Pakistan denying that Bin Laden is hiding on their territory: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-security-binladen.html?oref=login They keep suffering from the "not me" syndrome -- they refuse to acknowledge and take responsability for the fact that Bin Laden is on their soil. And Bush is providing them cover for their lame excuse, by calling them steadfast allies in the war on terror. What a farce. Because the Whitehouse has stroked the Pakistani ego, they now feel they are the indispensable ally, who can get away with saying and doing anything. Bush is so busy playing Lone Ranger, that he doesn't notice that Tonto is crooked. And please spare me the Jeffersonian naivete about education. The Islamists consider that the only true education should be "Islamic education" -- remember, the "great" Islam is all-encompassing, all-knowing -- the Koran has an opinion to offer on everything. They want technical education from the West -- technology which they are unable to generate for themselves due to backward 7-century ethics and economics -- and consider any moral, ethical, economic education a waste of time. Hence these phrases like "Islamic finance" and "Islamic economics". 7th Century Economics, how efficient.
 
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sanman    My reply to salaam al-aqaaid   10/30/2004 9:13:23 AM
My reply to salaam al-aqaaid: You ask "have you no shame"? I ask you right back -- have YOU?? I can't recall ever having seen or heard any Muslim express any shame over anything. Does Islam ever teach shame? Oh, I know, it teaches women to be ashamed of their faces and cover themselves in a tent because of the man's sinful lust (ie. a religion designed to cater to men by offloading blame onto women -- hence the need for a woman to supply 4 male witnesses if she gets raped, otherwise she can be called an adulteress) (What would Jefferson say about that, elcid? Not that Islamics even recognize Jefferson as any legitimate source of wisdom, since he's an infidel) So salaam al-aqaaid, if you can't express any shame for the Muslim community, why should any non-Muslim express any shame over an act that was committed by individuals? Whenever the subject comes up on Al-Qaeda attrocities, no Muslim comes forward to accept blame, they just say they don't have anything to do with AlQaeda and not to blame them. But when it comes to Abu Ghraib, then Muslims want every infidel to take responsability for it. Hey, salaam al-aqaaid, when it comes to not having shame, you wrote the book. So don't preach what you don't practice, or else learn to practice what you preach.
 
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