http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paganrising.html .

Acknowledged (Sork). I missed you were being light hearted. I rarely understand such things - never in my youth. {In the Navy they said I would drown in my own sweat. Took EVERYTHING seriously, I did.] I take the position of St Paul - we see now as through a glass darkly - and all confusion will only be wiped away when we are in Heaven. I don't know for sure who is right on most things - and I have taught Bible study with reference to Coptic, Orthodox, Protestant and Roman Catholic variations. But I confess I never taught a pacifist one - none of the ancient churches taught it and it contradicts too much scripture for me to take it seriously. But I admit that is my own, imprefect, human opinion.

Sork - this is the wrong thread for this. We should migrate it to the proper thread if you wish to persue it. I also have written a document for those interested in a detailed review - it is substantially quotes from cited books and articles - and so if you want more you can go to them. Among other things, I describe official US policy and war plans at each important stage in their evolution. Astonishingly, they have come pretty far around the circle from where they began - and we do not today believe what we did half a century ago about nuclear weapons. We learned. Individuals (for example Truman and Eisenhauer) learned. And maybe that was a necessary part of the process. I dream we might have been wiser to begin with - but it may be a false illusion. If you want to see A Brief History of MAD ask Chemist to send me your email address.

It was not Yasser Arafat. But many Palestinians have tried things. Some even have succeeded. There is a movement to get families of victims on both sides talking, and it seems to be strong and growing. Often it is the only reliable source of news for Palestinians about certain things. And it has led to some sympathy in Israel for the rather impossible situation many Palestinians are in just now.

I am having almost enough of this association of Hitler and Nazis with Christianity. Regretfully, I got involved in Axis nuclear research, and one of the researchers (published by USNI no less - Brooks) is deep into Nazi mysticism. There is no trace of Christianity in what Hitler believed or practiced. He regarded himself - and is still regarded by many - as a medium - guided by some pagan supernatural force to do superhuman things. He was pretty explicit about it too - and often had vulger things to say about churchmen and Christian institutions and ideas.

No one denies that Marx, Lenin, Stalin were all athesits (thought Stalin did attend a religous seminary) and Hitler along with other Nazi leaders like Himmler were far more inclined to think badly of Christianity - and Himmler certainly was far more interested in establishing pagan worship in the SS. Ideologies or world-views are not reducible to the biographies of individuals- however, signficant those individuals maybe. Most European relations to lets most American are probalby likely to more agnostic or even athesist (something that numerous polling data over the years has established) however, europeans by and large can only be atheist being post-chrisitan- in other words, chrisitianity has penetrated Euroepean culture so deeply that very ideas of good, evil etc are influenced by Chrisitan concepts. To suggest the link between an aspect of Christianity (its eschatology) as being condition of possilbity of Communist and to some extent that Nazi view of history - is not denigrate Chrisitianity but point to impact re-shaping conceptions of time and being. Hence, despite their antithesis towards official chrisitianity both Nazism and Communism were could escape its conceptual framework. That does not mean that Nazis and Communists were indistinct from christians- but rather structure of their fundamental beliefs were re-occupation and re-translation of Christian concepts specifically eschatalogy. This something I would suggest is fairly common-place among most historians,and philosphers of these ideologies. Again, to reiterate that does not make Judeo-Christian sensiblities - "responible" for death camps and labour camps, nor does deny the many brave Christians and Jews who were persecuted and killed by Nazi and Communist regimes. The association that I cited is a structural not a biographical- therefore it cannot be dis-approved by references to Mein Kampf or Das Capital or interpretations about indiviual expressions of belief or not by Hitler or Marx...To repeat myself I am NOT interested in 'dissing' or insulting anyone's beliefs.

...Yes you have missed it. I was not talking about Yasser Arafat- he is not be all and end all of the Palestinian movment... It is my belief that if the Palestinians used the methods of Martin Luther King they would already have their state. The actions of Yasser Arafat and his ilk have convinced the vast majority of Israelis that the Palestinian goal is the extermination, and that they have no other choice than Ariel Sharon. ...The Black Panthers, The Nation of Islam, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King were all involved in different ways and levels in affirmation of rights for African Americans... Martin Luther King was the face and voice of the African American civil Rights movement. All of the races of America are profoundly blessed because of him. Compared to him, all other players were lilliputian in stature.

...1. The philophical structure of communism and Nazism can be seen as secularized version of Christian eschatology... And the Nazi's took nothing from the Germanic mythology of the gotterdamerung?

...We see often (not exclusively) a Christian re-occuption of pagan rituals, metaphors, institutions... For example, temple friezes in 3rd Cent. BCE showing Isis and Horous -we see similar illustrations in 6th cent CE but this time they are described as Mary and the baby Jesus. How do we explain this translation?... I think I said that the Christian church appropriated some of holidays, symbols and titles of the pagan culture it replaced. Myth and religion are powerful because they address the common longings of humanity. In the context of Christian theology these common longings are part of what is called "general revelation." This is different to scripture, which is called special revelation. In the example I used, the title "Pontifix Maximus" can be translated as "the great bridge", someone who bridged the gulf between humanity and the spiritual. This is a common longing of humanity. Christians would see this as part of general revelation. It was appropriated by the Catholic Church to illustrate how a truth of the Christian faith met this common longing. Isis and Horous represent another common longing of humanity. We fear death, and we want an afterlife that is filled with love. Isis and Horous are a very compelling representation of this longing. The images were reworked and imported into the Christian milieu. Once again, an aspect of general revelation was used to illustrate an aspect of special revelation. It might be noted that Mary and Jesus had an entirely different relationship to each other than Isis and Horous. My reading indicates that the importation of imagry (leading to iconography) accellerated in the 7th century AD. Neoplatonic philosophy spread through the church, and church leaders like Chrysostam rather self-conciously separated themselves from the Jewish roots of the faith. I'm still tentative about this, however.

Humiliating, not physically harming, prisoners who fought for Islamofascist causes is the best away, aside from slaughter, to dissuade such people from trying to return the world, especially the west, to the tenth century. Those who attempt to do so will suffer what to them is horrid humiliation.