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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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mike_golf    RE:What is fascist hatred? -- M_G   10/10/2004 11:22:56 AM
elcid wrote: "And the tanker slightly misused Navy slang. An "airdale" is a NAVY aviator, or aviation support rating, not USAF." Yes, I know it is, but I like the slang and decided to misapply it intentionally, especially because I don't like the traditional Army slang for the air force.
 
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displacedjim    RE:What is M_G   10/10/2004 2:24:43 PM
"The boy scouts have adult supervision" HAHAHAHAHOhohohehheehum, oh boy, you slay me--NOT! :-) What's this? Not only do you "slag" me (as our Aussie posters seem to say), but you do it using a **squid** term?!? Oh, that's it, treadhead--see if you guys ever get any CAS from us again! Displacedjim
 
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mike_golf    RE:What is M_G   10/10/2004 2:36:00 PM
DJ wrote: "What's this? Not only do you "slag" me (as our Aussie posters seem to say), but you do it using a **squid** term?!? Oh, that's it, treadhead--see if you guys ever get any CAS from us again!" *laughs* come on, airedale sounds so much better than wingwiper, flyboy or jet jockey.
 
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timon_phocas    RE:Pacifist Christianity    10/10/2004 7:40:38 PM
...So all respects to your interpretation of your faith- if want to have discussion whether christianity is pacifist or not with me- it has be historical... I have really like historical discussions. In addition to being the primary source of Christian beliefs, the Bible is also a historical primary source. The passages I referenced are the accounts of first century writers. They are as valid as Josephus or Tacitus. I did not use them with any evangelical intent (perhaps that is a moral failure in me, but that's another discussion...). Back to the subject. The passages I quoted were intended as historical proof texts. To summarize, they show that the writers of the New Testament accounts did not think that their faith required pacifism. By the reign of Marcus Aurelius (161-180), many Roman soldiers were followers of the Christian faith. This is attested to in the writings of the ante-Nicene church fathers Tertullian and Origen. Another writer of that era who supports this is Melito of Sardis. --I believe there are others, but I haven't been able to look them up. This is just an accounting of what is readily at hand to me.-- The last great Roamn persecution of the Christian faith was under the reign emperor Diocletion (284-305). In 303 AD the campaign started with beheadings of Christian soldiers in the imperial palace at Nicomedia. My most ready source for this is "The Cross And The Sword" by Robert Grant. So we have Christian Roman soldiers from the first through the fourth centuries. If the Christian faith required pacifism, they wouldn't have existed. Roman opposition to the Christian faith was a part of the Roamn world view. The Romans believed themselves to be in partnership with spiritual powers to guide the world to its proper ends. This extended up from the lowliest family to the highest priests. Their purpose, as they saw it, was to preserve the ancient rites of these spiritual powers. In turn, these spiritual powers would aid the Romans. Pliny's letters to the emperor Trajan are examples of this in action. He governor of Bythinia and wrote explaining how the temples were neglected because so many Christians had abandoned the old gods. He asks what methods he should use in supressing them. Later, after the campaign against the Christians, he writes approvingly of how temples have been restored, the sacrifices are being made, and the ancient festivals are once again well attended. This Roman world view was what sparked the persecutions. The Christians did not feel that service as a soldier was antithetical to Christianity. The Roamn establishment felt that Christian faith was antithetical to the Roamn world view.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Pacifist Christianity    10/10/2004 8:24:29 PM
Timon_phocas wrote: "So we have Christian Roman soldiers from the first through the fourth centuries. If the Christian faith required pacifism, they wouldn't have existed." I think you misunderstand what is being said. There is, and has always been, a pacifist movement within Christianity. This does not mean that Christianity requires pacifism.
 
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timon_phocas    RE:Pacifist Christianity - mike_golf   10/10/2004 8:39:20 PM
...I wrote: "You ignored the obvious citation from Jesus, telling his followers to "turn the other cheek"."... The standard Christian interpretation is that this is a guide for personal relationship, and not necessarily for statecraft. Remember that passage in Romans chapter 13, where Paul expressly states that secular authorities can wield the sword as agents of God's justice? This is Jesus telling his followers to show God's love to those who personally injure them. This concept has a long history in Judaic scriptures as well. ...You also ignore another obvious modern pacifist Christian movement. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a pacifist... Many Christian movements have taken their inspiration from isolated passages of scripture. Celibacy, communalism, vegetariansm and pacifism have all been tried. sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. Martin Luther King's pacifism came from his reading of Ghandi, which in turn came from Ghandi's reading of the Gospels. Both of their movements could only really work against opponents with JudeoChristian sensibilities. If Ghandi or Martin Luther King had tried their campaigns against the Nazi's they would have all been exterminated. I would draw your attention to to the example of Dietrich Bonhoffer. He was a brilliant teacher and theologian. He was also an evangelical Lutheran pastor in Nazi Germany. He was drawn, step by logical step, into the conviction that he must join a violent attempt to overthrow the Nazi regime, and he was executed for it. ...Historically speaking, Christian pacifism was replaced with Christian militant teachings based on the citations you provide once Christianity began to gain secular power... In the post to sorkoi I have laid out a historical case for the presence of Christian Roman soldiers from the 1st through 4th centuries. In the case of Cornelius the Centurian, within a few years of the crucifixion. A continuous presence of soldiers in the church argues against a general pacifist tradition. I do not say that there were no Christian pacifists. Only that is was not the general teaching of the church. What I'm saying is that if I were alive at that time and said to a bishop that I was a thief, a prostitute or a swindler he would tell me to quit a sinful profession. If I told him I was a soldier, he probably would not. The Christian thinking on "Just War" derives from Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). He was alive when Constantine the Great made Christianity the formal religion of the Roman Empire. I don't think that Constantine's decision prompted Augustine's writing on the subject, but a historical case can be made either way. History has a lot of questions like that.
 
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sorkoi2003    RE:Pacifist Christianity - mike_golf   10/11/2004 8:53:59 AM
Just to clarify the historical case: 1. Chrisitanity contained and has continued to contain large (in relation to other Abrahamic faiths) pacifist element. 2. Given 2000+ years of Chrisitian history and evoluiton from reform movement within Judaism to full-grown autonomous religion at difffernt points you will find the militant or non-pacifist interpretation to be stronger and vis versa. 3. By the time of 6th century had returned to Christianity and remained fairly prominent until perhaps the begining of Crusades- there was strong pacifist tendency of which course did not stop Bishop taking part in war (however, I understand that the cleric with William of Normandy on the Hastings campaign said to have armed himself with a mace rather a sword- as to not draw blood...) but it was not something that Church was keen on. 4. The Bible like any text is open to interpretation. What we would need to know is how previous christians interpreted the same references e.g did they really make the sharp difference between public and private regarding turning the other cheek- if so, when, and who... hence, these are questions for historical investigation. The Bible was used by many supporters of apartheid and by many opponents of apartheid- I maybe wrong but they were refering to same text- but coming up with very different interpretations. I do not think such divergence of view is unique in christian history. 5. To repeat what Mike-Golf has said the claim is n't that Chrisitanity is in its essence pacifist but that in general has more pacifict elements than other Abrahamic monothesisms- which reflects its specific history.
 
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sorkoi2003    RE:Pacifist Christianity - protest   10/11/2004 9:02:10 AM
"Both of their movements could only really work against opponents with JudeoChristian sensibilities." The non-violent palestinian movement has not been that successful... Maybe its political circumstances that 'Judeo-Christian' sensiblities find themselves which determines their openess or not to non-violent protest. Also, one should not forget the 'Judeo-Christian' roots of both communism and Nazism (e.g see Michael Burliegh's recent histroy of Third Reich). Again this not to crticise 'Judeo-Christian values' but simply to point to their chequered history.
 
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elcid    The size of coalition (vs US) forces   10/11/2004 9:16:34 AM
Looking at a report of naval forces in theater, I was surprised to learn there are 91 ships, of which only 30 are US. The other 61 are coalition forces. One does not get this sort of impression from press reports.
 
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elcid    RE:Pacifist Christianity - timon_phocas   10/11/2004 9:19:53 AM
Well, it was Sork who said that Christians are "required" to turn the other cheek. My point is that this really is not true. I regard a person who thinks it is wrong to defend as actually immoral. And so do most Christians in all ages.
 
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