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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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Occident    RE:Americans must respect Islam - ilpars   5/21/2004 5:29:51 PM
>False, false and chapter of what. If you mean Quran; in Quran chapters do not have numbers, they have >names. So I do not understand what you are referring at. Yes , sure it is Quran. But a translation. It seems to have so many different way to interpret your religion... Are you sure you are muslim ? Lol. You always refer to your country. The samples you provide are far, very far, from the Islam I know. I admit Turkey is an exception in the list of muslim country. " On 9/11, I was at Philadelphia and my sister was at New York. I know that a Turk working on WTC and an Arab who was helping the firemen also died. I do not know any Turk who was happy. So, what was your point?" I live in France and 99% of our Muslins are Arabs muslims and specificly from Algeria , Tunisia, Morocco. We saw many of these groups happy of the 9/11 . Even at school , many arabs children were very happy. To use your expression : we saw many "broken nose" at this time... A common behavior of the muslim in my country is to be intolerant, to refuse the laws if there are against there religion, and to export the israelo-palestinian conflict here.I can say this is relatively new. 20 year ago , there was no real problem with muslims. Now, I think muslims want Europe become an Islamic country and act for that. Every week, Muslims calling for "jihad" are arrested. " They are many minority living in my country. Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Georgians, Greeks, Armenians, Italians, Jews ... We are compatibles. Maybe the problem is in your country. I do not know. " Yes sure, it is in my country... Don't believe it is a personal attack, but alas, your view of Islam don't match with the realities of many other countries than Turkey.So may be your are right, it is our faults. We don't accept forced wedding, sexual mutilations, lapidation, the place of the woman near the dog, the call to jihad etc... but I am rather proud of that. Now, let's go with your mother , sister , or wife in another islamic country and put them in bikini on the beach... And let me know what will happen. Even in France, young girls were burned alive by muslim because they wanted to live in a modern way... Sorry , but , for me , Islam is just another brainwashing machine.
 
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Landser1944    RE:Americans must respect Islam - ChdNorm   5/22/2004 12:48:18 PM
ChdNorm you'll find it rather easy to identificate traditional muslíms or jews.
 
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eplzaft    Why revisited   5/26/2004 12:32:39 AM
“Chauvinism: 1) excessive or blind patriotism, 2) undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs, or has belonged…” Webster’s Dictionary. The third definition of chauvinism (in order of usage): “an attitude of superiority towards members of the opposite sex.” This third definition applies immediately to islam, even in Turkey. Certainly it must be applied to islam worldwide. Do not women enjoy fewer rights and privileges in both islamic theocracies and the Turkish secular State? Others have argued here that Saudi Arabia offers freedom of religion because that government does not persecute “non-believers”, and allows them to worship in private. Is that freedom? Do not adherents of islam utilize the US court systems demanding their right to wear veils during the standard motor vehicle licensing photograph procedure, while defending the actions of Saudi Arabia? Do I sense a double standard on your part? Let us continue. Why do you defend islam’s current acceptance of slavery by stating Turkey abolished slavery before the US? (Arguable) Is not slavery wrong? Does slavery exist today? Does islam condemn slavery in name, but not practice? Do islamic clerics condone slavery? Were the Armenians persecuted because they were Armenian, or because they were Christian? Were the mothers of Ottoman rulers Christian converts, or Christian slaves? Where the Christian soldiers in the Ottoman “period” leftover Anatolian Byzantines? Were non-islamic citizens of the Ottoman Empire afforded the same legal protections or pay the same taxes as “true believers”? Ask the Greeks, Bulgars, Serbs, Armenians, and especially the Arabs! With that said, let me ask you these questions: Had Kemal not recognized islam as a hindrance to secular independence, would Turkey today be a breeding ground for international terrorism? Without the assistance of religion, would fundamentalist islamic terrorists continue to function, or would they have been eliminated the way the politically motivated Italian, German, and Japanese groups were? I think not. My own opinions are that Turkey survives because powerful men recognized the dangers that Turkey continues to experience from medieval islamic theocrats. Turkey is the only country with a muslim citizenry that successfully combats islamic fundamentalism. I hope Turkey prevails, but fear the corruption of its “secular” government fuels “jihadists”. When I speak of islam support of terrorists, I am open, indeed searching for, islamic clerics worldwide that condemn terror, slavery, chauvinism, intolerance, inequity, etc. How many muslim clerics preach worldwide? One million clerics? Two million clerics? Ten million clerics? Have a hundred muslim clerics publicly condemned terrorists? Has one muslim cleric preached to his congregation in opposition to “jihadists”? Until islam cleanses itself of the terrorist filth, until islamic theocracies hunt down and kill the terrorists they now continue to support, until islam unites to abolish slavery in the Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, Mauritania, until islam allows churches to be built in Saudi Arabia, until islam allows all women to own property rather than be property, until islam ceases to be a violent religion that suppresses the rights of its citizens and non-islamic neighbors, it deserves NO respect. It seems, in this discussion, only islam meets the definition of “chauvinism”, and your lack of historical and contemporary history does not disturb me: it is typical of islam.
 
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ilpars    RE:Why revisited   5/26/2004 3:23:20 AM
"This third definition applies immediately to islam, even in Turkey. Certainly it must be applied to islam worldwide. Do not women enjoy fewer rights and privileges in both islamic theocracies and the Turkish secular State? " In Turkey women have the same privileges with men. The Turkish women is in every part of our society. 1 of the prime ministers of Turkey was a woman. There are women officers in Turkish army. There are women in every job. Nothing is restricted. There is no restriction. This not the case in Arab countries. But this is part of Arab culture not Islam. ---------------------- "Others have argued here that Saudi Arabia offers freedom of religion because that government does not persecute “non-believers”, and allows them to worship in private. Is that freedom? Do not adherents of islam utilize the US court systems demanding their right to wear veils during the standard motor vehicle licensing photograph procedure, while defending the actions of Saudi Arabia? Do I sense a double standard on your part?" There is no freedom in Saudia Arabia. Interestingly Saudia Arabia is an ally of USA but not Turkey. In Turkey it is forbidden to have veiled photographs in Passports, driving licenses, ID's. In Turkey it is forbidden to enter schools or governmemtal buildins with "woman headwear" (can not remember the proper word in English). -------------------------- "Why do you defend islam’s current acceptance of slavery by stating Turkey abolished slavery before the US? (Arguable) Is not slavery wrong? Does slavery exist today? Does islam condemn slavery in name, but not practice? Do islamic clerics condone slavery?" I know Turkey. So I can only talk for Turkey. Turkey condemns slavery. Ottoman Empire had condemned slavery before USA. Turkish religious men condemns slavery. Turkey do not rule other muslim countries anymore. GB and France conquered them at the end of WW1 and ruled them until the end of WW2. These 2 countries had more recent influence on non-Turk muslim countries. Maybe you must ask them why fundementalism is so strong in their ex-colonies. ----------------------------- "Were the Armenians persecuted because they were Armenian, or because they were Christian? Were the mothers of Ottoman rulers Christian converts, or Christian slaves? Where the Christian soldiers in the Ottoman “period” leftover Anatolian Byzantines? Were non-islamic citizens of the Ottoman Empire afforded the same legal protections or pay the same taxes as “true believers”? Ask the Greeks, Bulgars, Serbs, Armenians, and especially the Arabs!" Armenians persecuted becuse they have revolted. Ottoman Empire was famous of its ruthlessness against revolters. From 15th century to 17th century Anatolian Turks revolted against Ottoman Empire numereous times. All of them crushed very ruthlessly. Arabs had revolted at the end of 19th century.Revolters again persecuted very severely. Ottoman Empire had a law of conscription. You either go to army or pay additional tax. From the start of 19th century, non-muslims rarely conscripted. So they paid additional taxes. In Ottoman Empire, one can choose the law system he will be judged. Greeks were judged according to greek law, a French tradesman judged according to French law. Muslim law was the most unforgiving law of the empire. So Muslims judged more severely. Yes, that was an absurd system. ------------------------- "Had Kemal not recognized islam as a hindrance to secular independence, would Turkey today be a breeding ground for international terrorism?" Ataturk was against Islamic religious caste. He believed (and I think is right) they were responsible for the Ottoman decayence. He destroyed the power of religious caste in Turkey. France and GB on the other hand, did not try or able to destroy the power of Islam religious caste in their colonies. --------------------------- "Without the assistance of religion, would fundamentalist islamic terrorists continue to function, or would they have been eliminated the way the politically motivated Italian, German, and Japanese groups were?" Without Islamic religious caste fundementalists can not function. Turkey destroyed their power. French and British did not. Now in Turkey clergy is government appointed officils not a caste. In the cold wars times. America and Russia was using different Fundementalist groups against each other. In that time many fundementalist groups were American allies. ------------------------------ "When I speak of islam support of terrorists, I am open, indeed searching for, islamic clerics worldwide that condemn terror, slavery, chauvinism, intolerance, inequity, etc. How many muslim clerics preach worldwide? One million clerics? Two million clerics? Ten million clerics? Have a hundred muslim clerics publicly condemned terrorists? Has one muslim cleric preached to his congregation in opposition to “jihadists”?" In Turkey all of the clergy condemns Jihadists. Fir
 
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Clausewitz    RE:Why revisited   5/26/2004 11:44:49 AM
Some/many turkish immigrants here in Germany support islamic fundamentalists (but most are just seeking for their indentity in coffee shops). And this is a growing number. Especially turish men are looking for turkish women out of Turkey to merry. The turkish women born here in Germany wear modern (and sometimes real sexy) clothes. They have a modern attitude. But turkish men often seem to be radical and have an anti western attitude. I can't understand them when they talk nearby. But if we talk in german they often feel sympathy for Saddam and the insurgents in iraq and even for Hamas in Palestine (I know that Turkey an Israel are allies; so it makes me wonder). Maybe they are feeling some form of cultural indentity. But these cultural indentity (even if I can understand such a feeling) could be dangerous if the war on terror escalates. Better would be a real support for Kemal Atatürks principles and that means for the west.
 
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ambush    RE:Americans must respect Islam   5/26/2004 12:22:16 PM
Respect Islam? Islam does not even respect itself. Look at the way the different sects treat each other. Followers of Islam have killed and are killing more followers of Islam than American military personnel. Of course respect is a two way street. When Islam shows the same level of condemnation for the beheading of civilians or killing then mutilating then hanging their bodies from a bridge that they do over even the smallest slight to their precious 7th Century level religion and culture I might show the respect they insist on. Till they I suggest they make some effort to join the rest of the world in the 21st Century.
 
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ambush    RE:fear and hatred in the middle east   5/26/2004 12:25:33 PM
Do yourself a websearch about David Koresh and Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker (try "televagelist"); you'll see we got problems in our religions just like anyone else.. You do not see anybody from those organizations strapping bombsto their kids or using planes as cruise misisles.
 
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ilpars    RE:Why revisited - Clausewitz   5/26/2004 12:38:59 PM
Turkish government warned Germany long time ago about the anti-Turkey fundementalist organizations organising at Germany. At the time they were not a threat against Germany, so Germans simply ignore them like they did ignore PKK. The strongest of these organizations is Kaplancilar leaded by a maniac named Cemalettin Kaplan. They are very bad organising terrorist attacks, thank God. They were caught in their every major terrorist attack in Turkey. All of them coming from Germany. I believe that Germany had understood this organization's potential threat to Germany also. I hope Germany stops their activities soon.
 
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Clausewitz    RE:Why revisited - Clausewitz   5/26/2004 1:15:06 PM
You are right ilpars. I am happy to say that today a german court allowed the german government to send Mr. Kaplan out of country. I hope that we wil send him to turkey to face justice.
 
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Ijahman    RE:fear and hatred in the middle east   5/26/2004 2:39:16 PM
I'm sure they would if they could... Ya got Paul Hill, James Kopp, Ray Lampley (bomber), Eric Rudolph (bomber) are a few for the christian folk...all in the name of the lord, hallelujah. All religions, cultures, nationalities, etc got wack jobs. Granted islam seems to have more than their fair share these days though.
 
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