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Subject: Te everlasting Baltic Question
saltpeterjunky    12/5/2006 2:44:05 PM
I just browsed the WWII history section here and saw that there are a lot of people with real interest in WWII (I mean REALLY interesed people, not die-hard anti or pro Nazis) but I didn't see any discussion on one of the most sensitive parts of WWII: East Front. Namely - the role of the 3 Baltic states in war and post-war history (forming of the volunteer and "volunteer" SS Legions and the occupation fact, which is not jet officially recognized by the Russian government. No doubt that the forming of the SS Legions in the Wehrmacht occupied countries (mostly Latvia) was illegal, and they knew that. But that is only one side of the coin - a big part of the legionaires actually WERE volunteers. One should take a closed look at the situation in the years the legions were formed: during the WWI the Baltic states felt the opportunity of independance within their grasp. Latvia, togather with Poland (and Estonia on one occasion)fought (at first partually togather with Germany) agenst the Russian Empire. Latvia actually freed it's territory by driving the Russian Imp. forces all the way across the country and even beyond, than signing a peace treaty (a separate one, sadly - Poland kept fighting) with Russia (Russa acknowlaged the independance of Latvia, and promissed NEVER to attack it agen). Int the next decades till WWII all the Baltic republics made impressive progress in economy, culture etc (I'm not a big expert in this, but I think that the Latvian flax and linen export made 80% of the world(?) or European market). Than, in 1940, Russia invaded all 3 Baltic republics, removing their governments and deporting more than 20.000 people from Latvia (not Latvians - although latvians were that absolute majority, the deportations were aimed agenst the intelligence, the wealthy and pollitically wrong-thinkin) The industry was torn-downs and moved to Russia. So it's no wonder that, in 41, the Wehrmacht was seen as a liberator and many Latvian men volunteerly joined it to take revenge and drive the russians, once more, out of their land. And what is another popular but false assumption - the SS Legions as units were in no way participated in the Holocaust (but there were Latvians, who actually participated in it, noone denies that (maybe someone still remembers the recent trials of Arajs and Kalejs, who were the most prominent Latvian - antisemitists)) So the really volunteer legions were a legitimate fighting-force, and it participated till the wery bitter end of the war (Latvian SS legionaires were actully the last defenders of the Reichstag in Berlin) No doubt they were man of valor and I think they deserve the right to remeber their fallen comrades in memorials like any other legitimate combatant in the world...whats your opinion on this? (if you have one, please) To make it clear, I'm not german nor latvian, so I can be cosidered somewaht independant in this matter... :) Saltpeterjunky
 
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8486cofe       12/6/2006 3:28:03 AM
"Latvian SS legionaires were actully the last defenders of the Reichstag in Berlin" along with a French Unit, one member of which was credited with the single handed destruction of 8 Russian tanks
 
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saltpeterjunky       12/6/2006 5:45:33 AM
:) well, it seems the foreign units were even more "patriotic" as Germans them selves [ not to be taken seriously ]
 
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shogun       12/6/2006 6:10:13 AM
Interesting subject! I just read a book about foreign units in the Bolschewik (sp?) armies in the post-WWI conflicts in the Baltic and Russia: here is a quotation from a Polish marshal named J. Pilsdulsky  from  1928. :"The Latvian strelets (standart  infantry formed from foreign soldiers in Russian armies in both WW I and II,  can be  translated like "shooters". The units mentioned here were fighting for Lenin) played an important role in obtaining independance for Poland. None of the "white" government programs included independance or authonomy for the nations in the Russian imp. Latvians passionaly  took part in several fronts of the Russian civil war. The mere  word "Latvian sterlet"  put their enemies in fear and terror.  The war was ruthless.  Latvian wern't  taken in captivity, they had to win of die. And they won and died, sustaining terrible losses."
Further in the book there is mentioned, that the Latvian strelet units were the most loyal to Lenin, and, on several ocasions, they saved the Bolschewik governmant from a certain defeat.
Another interesting fact is that the (don't know the word in eng. - you know, the guy that runs the millitary of a state) of the soviet union till 1919 was a Latvian named J. Vacietis.
Plus, In July 1936, as Baamonde Franco made it's coup in Spain, the soviet union sent millitary "advisors" for the republican forces there, for example, the commander of the Spanish fighter  (plane)  army was Peteris Pumpurs  (a Latvian) who personally participated in  are combat.

So seems like the Latvians themselves took a decisive part in forming the soviet union, too bad they didn't know what it would turn in :)



 
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CJH    Latvian soldiers at the Nuremberg Trials   12/9/2006 8:07:51 PM
 
"Everybody has seen soldiers with white helmets and white gloves standing along the walls in Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal hall. They are Americans. But only few know, that people dressed in similar uniforms - former Latvian and Estonian legionaries - were guarding imprisoned Nazis and securing facilities of Allied army."
 
Is this true?
 
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Wladimir Pax    Latvians never fought against the Russian Empire   11/16/2013 3:34:54 PM

Latvia NEVER fought against the Russian Empire. Neither Estonia nor Poland and Lithuania did it. On the contrary, the famous Latvian Rifles (Latvian volunteers in the Russian Army) bravely fought against the German Empire.

Then (in 1915) Janis Goldmanis and Janis Zalitis (future ministers in independent Latvia) explained why Latvian voluntary units should be formed to help the Impe­rial army: "The Latvian regiments will liberate and defend Latvia so that it could flourish as an inalienable part of powerful Russia."

In 1915 after the first victory of the Latvian volunteers at Mitava (Jelgava) over German troops the city saw a huge patriotic rally: Latvians who carried portraits of the Czar Nicolas II and Supreme Commander Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich and dis­played Latvian patriotic slogans, they formed a chorus singing the state and popular hymn "God save the Czar!" Janis &>68;akste, future first president of the Latvian Republic, was among those who organized the rally.

After the Russian revolution and dissolution of the Russian Empire by Communists – the Ostsee Germans (loyal to the Russian Crown) skepticism with which they treated the Latvian Rifle units proved to be justified: the Red Latvian Rifles' involve­ment in the Civil War on Lenin's side developed into a bloodbath.

No wonder that Latvia signed a peace treaty with this Soviet Russia – as the Soviet Regime was the very first to recognise the independent Latvia in 1920. France and Britain did it one year later, USA did it two years later – in 1922.

About economical situation during the first independence: by 1937 Latvia could barely export a quarter of the prewar export of machines and prod­ucts of metallurgy and chemical industry. (On the eve of World War I metal­working and rubber plants, ship-building yards, textile factories, and canneries were mushrooming around Riga, Tallinn and Liepaja. Between 1874 and 1914, the number of industrial enterprises on the territory of nowdays Latvia increased from 150 to 810.)

Between 1913 and 1939, the population of Riga dropped from 560 thou­sand to 385 thousand; of Liepaja, from 95 thousand to 57 thousand. In the same period, the number of workers at the metalworking and chemical plants of Estonia dropped from 22 thousand to 10 thousand; in Latvia, from 45 thousand to 25 thousand.

Other figures and facts you can find here: A. Fomenko. The Baltics as Russia’s Probleme // International Affairs, #4, 2008.

No wonder that after Communism (in 1917-1922 established in Russia by hordes of local and foreign Communists, including the Red Latvians – bodyguards of Lenin and Trotsky) came into Latvia in 1940 – “in 41 the Wehrmacht was seen as a liberator and many Latvian men voluntarily joined it”.

But do not forget – at the same time many Latvian men voluntarily joined the Red Army to fight Germans – as Latvian-German animosity had lasted several centuries before the Communists got control over Russia.

No doubt – on both sides there were men of valor. But one part of them was on the right side of the United Nations armies, on the side of winners – Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill.  Another part fought on the wrong side, on the side of losers: up to now Germany hosts the occupation forces and it is not fully sovereign state.

It happened in history: during the American Independence war among American colonists still loyal to the British Crown were many men of valor, but the British loyalists lost the war to American patriots – and the winners illegally deprived them of all their property and deported them from their home American soil to the Carribean or British isles.

WP
 
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Wladimir Pax       11/17/2013 4:26:04 AM

involve­ment in the Civil War on Lenin's side developed into a bloodbath.


No wonder that Latvia signed a peace treaty with this Soviet Russia – as the Soviet Regime was the very first to recognise the independent Latvia in 1920. France and Britain did it one year later, USA did it two years later – in 1922.



About economical situation during the first independence: by 1937 Latvia could barely export a quarter of the prewar export of machines and prod­ucts of metallurgy and chemical industry. (On the eve of World War I metal­working and rubber plants, ship-building yards, textile factories, and canneries were mushrooming around Riga, Tallinn and Liepaja. Between 1874 and 1914, the number of industrial enterprises on the territory of nowdays Latvia increased from 150 to 810.)



Between 1913 and 1939, the population of Riga dropped from 560 thou­sand to 385 thousand; of Liepaja, from 95 thousand to 57 thousand. In the same period, the number of workers at the metalworking and chemical plants of Estonia dropped from 22 thousand to 10 thousand; in Latvia, from 45 thousand to 25 thousand.



Other figures and facts you can find here: A. Fomenko. The Baltics as Russia’s Probleme // International Affairs, #4, 2008.



No wonder that after Communism (in 1917-1922 established in Russia by hordes of local and foreign Communists, including the Red Latvians – bodyguards of Lenin and Trotsky) came into Latvia in 1940 – “in 41 the Wehrmacht was seen as a liberator and many Latvian men voluntarily joined it”.



But do not forget – at the same time many Latvian men voluntarily joined the Red Army to fight Germans – as Latvian-German animosity had lasted several centuries before the Communists got control over Russia.



No doubt – on both sides there were men of valor. But one part of them was on the right side of the United Nations armies, on the side of winners – Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill.  Another part fought on the wrong side, on the side of losers: up to now Germany hosts the occupation forces and it is not fully sovereign state.



It happened in history: during the American Independence war among American colonists still loyal to the British Crown were many men of valor, but the British loyalists lost the war to American patriots – and the winners illegally deprived them of all their property and deported them from their home American soil to the Carribean or British isles.


WP

 
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keffler       11/18/2013 3:45:04 PM
Actually Canada more than anywhere else.
 
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