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Subject: Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?
S-2    10/31/2005 12:47:31 PM
Assuming the timely conquest of England by Germany, could the Germans conquer, exploit to good purpose, defend, and supply Iceland? You define the assorted variables to consider that assist or impede your arguments, but there appears some potential for a discussion. As Thomas pointed out, by March, 1941, U.S. forces were in Keflavik and Reykjavik.
 
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Carl S    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   10/31/2005 9:41:37 PM
I've seen vague refrences to US preperations for seizing stratigic points during 1940. These appear to have been 'updated' after President Roosevelt declared the State of Emergency after France collapsed in June. The US Navy did have several regiments of marines on the east coast, and a Expiditionary Brigade organized around one of these. So, the capability was there for occupying the ports. What happend after that would depend on how quickly the US Army could organize a effective infantry corps and air wing to follow on and put some real backbone into the defense of Iceland. There is the possibility of a few combat capable battlaions otr brigades of British retreating no further than Iceland after defet in Britian. The real variable would be what the Germans might have to take Iceland with. The Norwegian campaign hurt the Kriegsmarine, and the operational attrition to the Luftwaffe there was not light either. Invading Britian would have been far more demanding for the LW & KM. And the 7th Parachute and 22d Airlanding Divsions might have suffered further serious losses on top of what they took in Holland. There very well have been insuffcient ships and airbourne battalions to make more than a raid. One certainity is the winter weather. Air ops in the North Atlantic after September are risky. It is quite possible the German air attack force would be repeatedly grounded. Worst case is that without reliable weather data the air assualt would be destroyed flying into a unpredicted artic storm. In the summer of 1941 a different situation emerges. The US would certainly have a large infantry corps, or perhaps army settled onto Iceland, along with air and naval forces. The German could have rebuilt their paras and airlanding units, and the Luftwaffe would be recovered. But Iceland is at the extreme range of the Luftwaffes bombers and transports, out of effective fighter range, the KM cannot be rebuilt so quickly, and there is the need to turn east anyway. The question of Iceland can be applied to other areas such as West Africa and the Indian Ocean. Does the US take the initiative and seize such critical forward posts, or does it focus on the Japanese & the Pacific.
 
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Carl S    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   10/31/2005 10:01:14 PM
After Denmark was conquored Britian sent a small contingent to Iceland. It may have ggrown to two brigades. Anyway one of the purposes to sending the US battalions there in 1941 was to release the British units for combat elasewhere. (Africa?)
 
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S-2    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/1/2005 12:21:07 AM
Carl, you've got me. As I've earlier postulated that German airborne and airlanding divisions would be critical to the conquest of England, and fully in agreement about the winter weather, and British reconstitution, all this MUST occur before Dec. 1, 1940, at the latest. Clearly, casualties occurred in Holland would impact the relevant German forces for England, much less follow-up ops. in Iceland-all between late April and early December, 1940. Accuracy requires more research into German airborne/airlanding orders of battle, as well as casualties sustained in the Holland operations. Then we'd have to speculate on further casualties sustained in England. Assuming the successful occupation of Iceland by German forces, though, was my original intent. Without adequate forethought, I projected those forces there before allied reinforcement could successfully prevent or respond. I'm outta here for a bit of research.
 
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Carl S    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/1/2005 2:32:25 AM
If Iceland is German occupied in 1940 I dont see the US going there until it get serious about a War for Europe.. probably after the Japanese are dealt with. In that case it is an entirely diferent war. After you do your research on the Germans take a look at the battle for the Solomons. Compare the resources the Japanese threw into that battle and the results they got, then compare to what the Germans had. Next look at 1945 and the battle for Okinawa. Just in terms of range the Luftwaffe does not look good.
 
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Thomas    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/1/2005 5:02:10 AM
Iceland was actually occupied by Britain in may 1940 - before the fall of France - and not by a small unit (25000 men): http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/I/USMC-I-I-4.html The fall of Britain would have expedited a US expetion. As to Germany taking Iceland after Britain had fallen,well ... Look what they proposed to invade Britain in: River barges. Hardly the craft of choise in the autumn storms in the North Atlantic, as to paras landing there? During the cold war it was reconed that the Fairisles could be held by a brigade. Furthermore keeping any sort of sizeable force supplied on Iceland - for the German Navy - nope.
 
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Carl S    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/1/2005 6:45:53 AM
Nothing like a few facts to shut down a thread. : ( I was giving the Germans a little slack, but Thomas requires quite a bit more than better German strategy and planning in 1940. A quick look at the book shows the German bombers and fighters having as poor range, compared to the Japanese, as I remembered.
 
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Seeker    Guys 3/4 of the german troops and supplies destine for the UK   11/1/2005 9:26:44 AM
Were to go upto ~ 160 merchants ships escorted by the fleet, which at that time was at best 30 seagoing warships & upto 30 Auxilary warships, to unload directly into british ports all around the country as was done in Norway. Narvik run was 2000km move before they landed...whats the distance to Iceland? Had they not thrown away the fleet on Norway operation, they probably would have double the escorts. The threat of port to port invasion of the UK was so severe , First Sea Lord Admiral Pound warned Churchill in September 1940 that it was likely 100,000 german troops could land unopposed. RN/RAF just didn't have the survalliance capability to cover such a large body of water around the country. Roughly 1/2 the rest of the invasion fleet were to cross the channel was steamers and ferries leaving only 1/10 to go by barges, all escorted by 30-60 smaller warships and hundreds of auxilary armed trawlers [Vboot] plus ~ 1000 smaller fast motorboats/fishing boats [as scouts/guides]. Infact its likely towed barges were mostly for moving supplies and some heavy weapons . With even one years prep would have all been powered by surplus luftwaffe engines and doubled the auxillary warship fleet. The lack of preperation for UK invasion was Hitlers fault, others had considered it since WW-I , including Churchill.
 
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Thomas    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/1/2005 10:23:15 AM
Arctic warfare has something in common with mountain warfare: The worst supply problem. Arctic warfare is very much a patrol warfare.
 
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S-2    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/4/2005 4:27:52 PM
Some preliminary research on German airborne operations in Norway and Holland has revealed the following- NORWAY- Approx. 530 Ju-52 aircraft were employed throughout the battle. Losses unknown. German airborne operations seem limited, with single fallshirmkompanie drops at Oslo and one other location. 163 Inf. Div. provided approx. 3,000 troops (Regiment?)as followup to the Oslo airport seizure. Operations were small overall. HOLLAND- Approx. 430 Ju-52 available (attrition from Norway?)of which 162 were destroyed or damaged during campaign. 4000 fallshirmtruppen employed in both airborne and gliderborne roles, including gliderborne pioneers at the Meuse forts in Belgium. In May of 1940, German airborne forces seem centered upon 3 fallshirm regiments of the Luftwaffe, and the 22 Inf. Div. (Luftlande) of the army. Clearly, 163 Inf. Div. had gained valuable experience as a result of Oslo, but I suspect that significant elements of that division were still engaged in Norway. While losses of Ju-52 aircraft over Holland were high, German aircraft production made good those losses easily (over 5400 Ju-52s produced). Still, airborne operations over England would involve, I'm certain, the use of all three luftwaffe fallshirm regiments and the 22 Luftlande Div. None of these units were configured to fight sustained battles. Nor had they fought as regiments and divisions to that point. Five of the six regimental formations would probably have been available for England, with one fallshirm regiment reconstituting following Holland. Employment of these forces, I believe, would be targeted at southern British airfields, radar sites, and communications centers. They would require both air-reinforcement, as well as followup ground forces to survive the campaign relatively intact and be of later use in Iceland. German fighter coverage could probably ensure the initial insertion of these troops, though following resupply aircraft would probably be increasingly vulnerable to RAF interdiction. A Gebirgsjager division later airlanded at Crete, and proved a fortuitous inclusion to the German Order of Battle. Of all the appropriate forces for an Icelandic occupation, this type unit may have been best structured for the task. Those are my thoughts on England.
 
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CJH    RE:Assuming England Conquered by Nov. 1940, What About Iceland?   11/5/2005 10:27:10 AM
Was there any chance the Germans would have better succeeded in taking Iceland in advance of rather than subsequent to an invasion of Britain (circumscribing England's abilty)?
 
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