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Subject: Turkey looking at the grand scheme of things?
Jimme    10/13/2007 3:36:55 AM
Considering what’s at stake for both sides is Turkey making a big fuss over nothing here. Seriously whether or not there was a genocide during the ending of the Ottoman Empire at this point is now moot as far as the US legislature is concerned . I don’t think US politicos take kindly to other nations giving them ultimatums on the bills they pass. Who is Turkey to demand we change the way we view history. The Idea that Turkey is being picked on because it is a Muslim country is totally ridiculous and naive. If anything the opposite would be true in today’s political climate. Honestly should the US care whether Turkey wants to be our friend or not over such a mundane issue? I understand the US has a lot to lose with the failing relationship with Turkey especially concerning Iraq, Iran and the rest of the middle east. What about everything the Turks stand to lose. Considering France has already taken a similar stance on the issue they could well kiss any hope of EU membership goodbye. Much of their military equipment comes from Uncle Sam so that’s got to be a concern. Trade is also a big factor in their volatile economy. The Kurdish border Is a huge issue for both sides, with the Turks threatening incursions into Kurdish Iraq. Though it may look like this could incite Turkey to do so, If one looks in another light. How smart does it seem to cross over into a country whose security is currently the responsibility of the world’s sole super power that you’re not on great terms with. So what do you guys think? Would it really be in Turkeys best interest to destroy relations with the US over a past empire that no longer exists? Will Turkey make good on their promise or is it a lot of huffing and puffing? How will the rest of the world view the situation if they did?
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Scratchie       10/23/2007 10:20:41 PM

Good points, but what i am trying point out that while we were dealing with invasion and  the WW1, why would we focus on massively kill Armenians? Germany was perfectly fine. Of course, my opinion is not based on facts just like yours. you just believe it happened which is kind of like believing in god. You can't prove god exists but you have faith.

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Darth Squirrel       10/24/2007 12:09:39 AM
  It bears pointing out that Turkey is a NATO member and is sustaining attacks launched into Turkey from a foreign territory.  The US gov't likes the Kurds because they can at least govern themselves, but Turkey has a legitimate beef with the strife the Kurds cause in their country. 
   Now I have no particular love of the Turks either, they are a brutal people to be sure, but giving them the diplomatic finger by randomly passing some ancient condemnation will have only one result - cementing the radicalization of the Turkish political system and driving them deeper into strategic relationships with Islamist states.  Turkey is a powerful country, and in another generation we will likely be thinking about Turkey in an entirely different geopolitical context.  It is unlikely the military will intervene against the government this time.
   The only reason Turkey was admitted to NATO was because we needed to give the Soviets another flank to worry about.  They know that.  They know there is no way in hell they are going to get EU membership.  This is all going to play out badly one day in the future, but we need to delay that day for as long as possible.
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Godofgamblers       10/24/2007 12:15:30 AM
For everyone's reference, there's a long thread on this subject that I started quite a way back. It is a good introduction to the subject and many people on SP contributed their views:

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paul1970       10/24/2007 10:43:38 AM

Jeff, Paul, I don;t like to throw around words ike crazy or asinine, but what does Israel have to do with genocide?  Genocide would imply that Israel was going to kill a few million Arabs, which regrettably is not the case.  The worst any public figure in Israel at any time has ever suggested was transfer or expulsion; I'm afraid this is not genocide.  And equally regrettably, this is not on the table either, though I think it is probably the only solution.

If you're talking about a couple of hundred killed in some village or other, this is not genocide, this is not even a pogrom. 

Paul is British, so I understand he can't think straight.  Jeff, what's your excuse?

you take me out of context.... perhaps because you are not British and think bent????   :-)
I mentioned Israel and Sudan in the context that each has a major power backing it and its actions... US and China. and it would take these major powers to back off support to bring any real effective enforcement on Israel or Sudan. Israel certainly flout it around but I don't accuse Israel of genocide. 
if you want everyone to play fair then you need a level playing field.

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RockyMTNClimber    Deep breathing.... cont'd   10/24/2007 1:22:01 PM


1) Will you stop watching the news as well?
I am not a big fan of the MSM as it has evolved in the West. I can't speak for your local news coverages but for the most part their agendas rule them more than the facts.
2) glad to hear that
3) OKay to that
4) Based on what? Aren't you assuming that they happened? People died. No one is denying that. But why would the Ottoman turks kill Armenians when Armenians were on our side. they lived together peacefully for years. Just like Kurds in Turkey. There are always some rebels that are never satisfied and want to have their own nation. That's what it was at the time. And that's what it is now (PKK).
For the purposes of this conversation I am happy to leave the "Armenian question" on the side to discuss what Turkey should do moving forward from today, which is the point of this thread.

As I have said over and over on this thread Turkey is a good citizen IMV who has legitimate grievences about PKK actions. I watched a BBC report last night showing the Turkish Defense Minister and the Iraqi Foriegn Minister (who is a Kurd) standing side by side with their respective flags behind them answering questions from the international press corp. This mirrors last week's meeting between the VP of Iraq (a Kurd himself ) & high level officials of Turkey. What all this tells us is that the parties involved are working closely with each other to find a resolution to the PKK terrorist actions. At no point is Iraq telling Turkey that they can not do anything. They seem to be working together to get the job done. Bully for them, lets take that as good news!

5) Rocky, you are talking about my ability to convince people but try to convince me with facts that the genocide happened. I obviously can't, because there is nothing that I can show that proves it did or didn't happen. I just hope that unbiased historians would do the research to put an end to this.

Again and again you make assumptions about what outside parties are thinking. I don't think you know as much about what other people think as you think you do. 

Check Six
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RockyMTNClimber    Genocide or not   10/24/2007 3:51:47 PM

For everyone's reference, there's a long thread on this subject that I started quite a way back. It is a good introduction to the subject and many people on SP contributed their views:


 Scratchie, If you would like to debate whether or not there was a event of interest surrounding the deaths of Armenians in and around 1915, I will oblige you by meetig you at GoG's thread shown above. We may do our individual research and post our best case for our conclusions there without anger or angst. I would be happy to follow the evidence where it leads us. 
Check Six

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Foxr55    another story   1/9/2009 2:35:16 PM
closing to the us didnt gain turkey anything...&&05; think turkey should have closer relations with eastern powers such as russia,china,india etc...western country is another story for us...
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