Turkey looking at the grand scheme of things?

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Subject: Turkey looking at the grand scheme of things?
Jimme 10/13/2007 3:36:55 AM

Considering what’s at stake for both sides is Turkey making a big fuss over nothing here. Seriously whether or not there was a genocide during the ending of the Ottoman Empire at this point is now moot as far as the US legislature is concerned . I don’t think US politicos take kindly to other nations giving them ultimatums on the bills they pass. Who is Turkey to demand we change the way we view history. The Idea that Turkey is being picked on because it is a Muslim country is totally ridiculous and naive. If anything the opposite would be true in today’s political climate. Honestly should the US care whether Turkey wants to be our friend or not over such a mundane issue? I understand the US has a lot to lose with the failing relationship with Turkey especially concerning Iraq, Iran and the rest of the middle east. What about everything the Turks stand to lose. Considering France has already taken a similar stance on the issue they could well kiss any hope of EU membership goodbye. Much of their military equipment comes from Uncle Sam so that’s got to be a concern. Trade is also a big factor in their volatile economy. The Kurdish border Is a huge issue for both sides, with the Turks threatening incursions into Kurdish Iraq. Though it may look like this could incite Turkey to do so, If one looks in another light. How smart does it seem to cross over into a country whose security is currently the responsibility of the world’s sole super power that you’re not on great terms with. So what do you guys think? Would it really be in Turkeys best interest to destroy relations with the US over a past empire that no longer exists? Will Turkey make good on their promise or is it a lot of huffing and puffing? How will the rest of the world view the situation if they did?

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Wicked Chinchilla 10/22/2007 12:54:01 PM

Unless I mis-read his statement I dont believe he seriously meant that Israel should be punished for Genocide. I think the point he was trying to make that defining that conflict as "genocide" was a bit stupid because it greatly widens the definition. Calling the Armenian situation Genocide implies other like situations as Genocide as well, one like situation being Israel. From the facts that come out, it is not Genocide, it was war. People who are shocked about this should read some history. War has never been neat, pretty, or clean. Contrary to popular belief modern warfare is orders of magnitude more clean than anything ever seen before. Hell, you could call the Thirty-Years war genocide by those standards, or other medieval wars. Practically EVERY ancient war would qualify as well. In my view this was foolish, unnecessary, and just plain stupid.

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Scratchie 10/22/2007 9:16:23 PM

I am trying really really hard not to come to these boards and write again. But not possible I see.

A big majority of the non Turks will always be on the Armenian side, always. I mean show me proof? oh yeah Turks are jerks so they must have killed Armenians. An assumption? A big one. Evidence? None. Germans committed genocide and they don't deny it. But hey! Can they deny it? Hitler basically announced he would massacre the Jews. So don't even compare. When did this happen? During WW1 right? Great Britain, France, Greece and all the other allies invaded Turkey. possibly the worst time of the Ottaman Empire. So as if we Turks had nothing better to do other than fighting the allies ( most of which were super powers at the time), we just had the time, weapons, manpower that we spared from the war, and wanted to kill the perfectly peaceful Armenian population. Wow!!! what a scenario. Congratulations cuz you swallowed it really good it didnt even get stuck in your throats guys. What a double standard. What a bullshit scenerio. Ohh yeah I believe those jerk Turks killed 1.5 million Armenians but we shouldnt pass this law because we will lose a good ally. Oh now we are good. is that right. You might as well pass the fucking law why wouldnt you pass something that you believe happened. US is the superpower why would she need Turkey? You don't value anyone who is non European or American. Most of the Europeans fucked up the world yet the Turkish are the lone jerks. I know what I am . I am a son of a proud nation. I cry for the ones who lose their lives in Southern Turkey everyday. You wouldn't feel a thing. You wouldn't know what it's like. Only the mothers of brave those soldiers can understand the depth and the tragic side of this conflict. Barzani talabani all are the same. PKK is fighting for their cause too. Aren't they? When PKK has been accepted as a terrorist group by EU and the US, how come they are still being referred to as "freedom fighters" or "rebels" by reutors, CNN and BBC? I got the answer. They are fighting against the Turks. So They must be right in their cause. what's the point? We will always be wrong no matter what. I am sick and tired of watching news and seeing 10-20 turkish troops being ambushed cowardly and killed every single day. They are not British, German, Armenian, or French so not important. I am sick of you, all of you who think we are wrong all the time. But don't forget one thing. We are nobody;s puppet. We will act in the best interest of our country, not the USA's. You guys keep BSing.

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Wicked Chinchilla 10/22/2007 9:51:54 PM

Easy there scratchie, in point of fact most people are on Turkey's side on this board and think this decision was stupid and a waste of time. Thus, they are in agreement with you...and not against Turkey...

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Wicked Chinchilla 10/22/2007 9:51:57 PM

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Scratchie 10/22/2007 10:03:05 PM

Not really. People believe the genocide happen. They just dont want the resolution to pass because it will harm US. So they are not on our side.

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RockyMTNClimber 10/23/2007 11:33:05 AM

Not really. People believe the genocide happen. They just dont want the resolution to pass because it will harm US. So they are not on our side.

I am wondering where you are coming from scratchie. Do you assert there was no event of interest surrounding the "legend" of the Armenian genocide? Is there no long and at times quite difficult history between the Western Europeans and the Ottoman-Turks? Have the modern Turkish been seeking acceptance of the modern Europe and many in EU in the same in return?

Your history is what it is. It makes no sense to spit your venom at US (do you have any idea how many people of Turkish decent live in the US?). Do not rant sir or you will be ignored. If you would like to offer an alternative view please do so with eloquence, reason, and documentation. I assure you you will be recieved well.

If you simply wish to blame someone else for your woes, seek a mirror and study it carefully.

Check Six

Rocky

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Scratchie 10/23/2007 1:33:53 PM

Not really. People believe the genocide happen. They just dont want the resolution to pass because it will harm US. So they are not on our side.

If you simply wish to blame someone else for your woes, seek a mirror and study it carefully.

Check Six

Rocky

Rocky,

All I am trying to say is that I am SICK and TIRED of listening to the news every single day. Everybody is talking about diplomacy. Okay yeah diplomacy is necessary, but can you really negotiate with terrorists? who believes in these forums that it is possible or a good idea to negotiate with terrorists? You completely ignored what I said. You are telling me to document what I said. How can I document what i feel? the only part where documentation is necessary would be the genocide part. Other than the falsified grandma told me stories noone actually prove that it happened. that is all i am trying to say.

I am not spitting my venom to US. Let me explain to you guys again what I meant. IF the US believes that the Armenian genocide has happened, then there is no point of working against it. If Turkey is a good ally to the US and saving them billions of dollars in their war efforts, then why can't the US help Turkey to clean up Northern Iraq. We can work together on this. Barzani and Talabani are just bullshitting. they are saying "we will defend ourselves" Cool, but who's attacking you? Our target is PKK and whoever is supporting them. If Barzani is on their side then they should defend themselves. We are not going to let anyone illegally cross our borders and COWARDLY ambush our troops and run away. I am 100% sure if you were us, you would take action. Ex. Iraq, Afghanistan. I would like the US to be on our side on this. PKK is simply a terrosist group., just like al-qaide. there are lots Turkish Kurds in the Turkish army fighting against PKK. If they are being treated that bad, then why aren't they joining PKK?

So I am sorry if I offended any of you, but we as a nation are pissed and can't tolerate any more killing.

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RockyMTNClimber Angry Young Turk 10/23/2007 2:13:30 PM

Not really. People believe the genocide happen. They just dont want the resolution to pass because it will harm US. So they are not on our side.

If you simply wish to blame someone else for your woes, seek a mirror and study it carefully.

Check Six

Rocky

Check Six

Rocky

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Scratchie 10/23/2007 7:53:36 PM

A few suggestions: 1. stop watching the news, 2. too much anger for a young man breath deep and understand US is on your side (our democrat Congress are idiots for starting this nonsense as has been pointed out by several posters), 3. US Congress never even brought the bill to the floor of the House since it was in fact a stupid thing to do, 4. the Armenian killings did happen, you can parce words anyway you like (genocide-massacre-?) but it will not change that. It is entirely appropriate for historians to investigate and come to conclusions about it, 4. I am pretty impossible to offend here so don't worry about that, but you do not sound rational and that effects your ability to sway people to your side of a discussion.

Rocky,

1) Will you stop watching the news as well?
2) glad to hear that
3) OKay to that
4) Based on what? Aren't you assuming that they happened? People died. No one is denying that. But why would the Ottoman turks kill Armenians when Armenians were on our side. they lived together peacefully for years. Just like Kurds in Turkey. There are always some rebels that are never satisfied and want to have their own nation. That's what it was at the time. And that's what it is now (PKK).
5) Rocky, you are talking about my ability to convince people but try to convince me with facts that the genocide happened. I obviously can't, because there is nothing that I can show that proves it did or didn't happen. I just hope that unbiased historians would do the research to put an end to this.

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VelocityVector 10/23/2007 8:33:57 PM

To borrow:

But why would the [Germans] kill [Jews] when [Jews] were on [the German] side [and even participated prominently in German government, industry, academy and industry]. [Germans and Jews] lived together peacefully for years. Just like [Czechs and Poles living] in [Germany]. There are always some rebels that are never satisfied and want to have their own nation [, including people with ancient histories like the Jews].

Consider why. Further consider practically what it must have been like to live as second-class citizens, subject to special levies and with crushing societal influence to abandon who you are. Would a Turk, Greek, Frenchman, Brit or Finlander willingly accept such "accommodation?"

v^2

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