Great point, what exactly will it take for western society to no longer tolerate such acts in todays world. Places like Darfur and Burma and many other countless tragic locations on earth get little attention and almost no coverage. But then who is going to do anything about it? Tree huggers love saving nature just as long as its not human. The UN will just as likely put the perps on the human rights council as they are to actually do something about it, US is stretched thin with real global threats and the rest of the west could give a crap.

But thats not the issue of the thread, the issue is that if it were not for Turkeys bitching and moaning, most people wouldn't even know about the proposed vote on the matter. Its bad enough that Muslims think they can get there way infringing on our freedom of speech and expression by throwing a violence fit, now we have a nation giving a tantrum over a meaning less bill in OUR government?

Is it unconvenient timing, sure. Is there any good to be had out of it, probably not. What it does demonstrate however is whether or not we will keep our right to call a spade a spade or if we will revert to the pre Reagan era of playing nice .

I agree..... I have called a few times about Africa and the various acts of terror/genocide going on there.

 

it takes the big leaders in the west to do something about it. very little can be done unless the US gives it the nod. the only exception being when France, Britain or Russia do something of "vital" interest to themselves.

those "tree hugers" are the ones who sign petitions trying to get their governments to act. Dafur and Zimbabwi get massive amount of media attention (at least in UK) and the public would back action on them if it had clear direction. but where is the political will? there would be far more support in UK for action on Dafur and Zimbabwi than the Iraq invasion. witness the continued support for Afganistan which is seen as just war of terrorism whereas Iraq was seen as helping America over anything but terrorism.

 

I see no good reason to declare Turkey's past actions as genocide while we ignore it happening right now. pick on current genocide and raise uproar on this until action has to be taken. once you get rid of current genocide then start to go back and pick on others but beware rocks and glass houses.....

 

 

Paul

Great point, what exactly will it take for western society to no longer tolerate such acts in todays world. Places like Darfur and Burma and many other countless tragic locations on earth get little attention and almost no coverage. But then who is going to do anything about it? Tree huggers love saving nature just as long as its not human. The UN will just as likely put the perps on the human rights council as they are to actually do something about it, US is stretched thin with real global threats and the rest of the west could give a crap.

But thats not the issue of the thread, the issue is that if it were not for Turkeys bitching and moaning, most people wouldn't even know about the proposed vote on the matter. Its bad enough that Muslims think they can get there way infringing on our freedom of speech and expression by throwing a violence fit, now we have a nation giving a tantrum over a meaning less bill in OUR government?

Is it unconvenient timing, sure. Is there any good to be had out of it, probably not. What it does demonstrate however is whether or not we will keep our right to call a spade a spade or if we will revert to the pre Reagan era of playing nice .

I agree..... I have called a few times about Africa and the various acts of terror/genocide going on there.

 

it takes the big leaders in the west to do something about it. very little can be done unless the US gives it the nod. the only exception being when France, Britain or Russia do something of "vital" interest to themselves.

those "tree hugers" are the ones who sign petitions trying to get their governments to act. Dafur and Zimbabwi get massive amount of media attention (at least in UK) and the public would back action on them if it had clear direction. but where is the political will? there would be far more support in UK for action on Dafur and Zimbabwi than the Iraq invasion. witness the continued support for Afganistan which is seen as just war of terrorism whereas Iraq was seen as helping America over anything but terrorism.

 

I see no good reason to declare Turkey's past actions as genocide while we ignore it happening right now. pick on current genocide and raise uproar on this until action has to be taken. once you get rid of current genocide then start to go back and pick on others but beware rocks and glass houses.....

 

 

Paul

Oops! We're sorry. Our bad.....Gawd those people are stupid! Damage done now though.

 

Check  Six

 

Rocky


ht***tp://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/washington/17cnd-cong.html?ei=5065&en=20af3ab48140086a&ex=1193198400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

 

WASHINGTON, Oct. 16 — Worried about antagonizing Turkish leaders, House members from both parties have begun to withdraw their support from a resolution supported by the Democratic leadership that would condemn as genocide the mass killings of Armenians nearly a century ago.

Almost a dozen lawmakers had shifted against the measure over the last 24 hours, accelerating a sudden exodus that has cast deep doubt over the measure?s prospects. Some representatives made clear that they were heeding warnings from the White House, which has called the measure dangerously provocative, and from the Turkish government, which has said House passage would prompt Turkey to reconsider its ties to the United States, including logistical support for the Iraq war.

Until today, the resolution appeared to be on a path to House passage, with strong support from the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi of California. It was approved last week by the House Foreign Affairs Committee. But this evening, a group of group of senior House Democrats had made it known they were planning to ask the leadership to drop plans for a vote on the measure.

?Turkey obviously feels they are getting poked in the eye over something that happened a century ago, and maybe this isn?t a good time to be doing that,? said Representative Allen Boyd, a Florida Democrat who dropped his sponsorship of the resolution Monday night. ............... article continues

Playing Politics with Genocide

 

The only reason any survived was that the Turks lacked the administrative skills and technologies to kill everyone. Not every captive fit into the burning churches. On the death marches across Anatolia into the Syrian desert, guards ran out of bullets. And even sadists grew weary of bayoneting children and clubbing old men to death.

Women were raped by the tens of thousands. Many were raped repeatedly. Then they were killed. Or enslaved. Or left to die of exposure by the roadside.

Ancient communities were annihilated. A magnificent culture - the remnants of the world's first Christian kingdom - drowned in blood.

Only Turks question this history. The eyewitness accounts are extensive - not only from Armenian survivors, but from American and German consuls and missionaries. The documentation is readily available (texts crowd one of my bookshelves).

Hitler cited the Armenian Genocide as an inspiration for the Holocaust - the lesson he drew was that the Turks got away with it. The world never intervened. Apologists for the Allies blamed the war. The truth is that the eyewitnesses went ignored: Armenian lives had less value then than do those of Darfur refugees today.

Last Wednesday, the Democrat-controlled House Foreign Affairs Committee passed a resolution formally declaring the Armenian tragedy what it was: genocide. Speaker Nancy Pelosi intends to bring the resolution to a vote on the floor, after which it would go to the Senate.

We need to stop it. It's a travesty and a betrayal. Of Armenian-Americans. And of our troops.

Make no mistake: I'm on the Armenian side in the court of history. When the same resolution came up in years past, I supported it. The Armenian survivors - their descendents, at this point - deserve justice.

And I have no sympathy with the Turks. The Turks are jerks. After the United States supported them unswervingly for more than a half-century, they stiffed us the single time we needed help - when we asked to move an Army division through Turkey on the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

And the Ankara government has led an internal campaign of anti-Americanism far more lurid and vicious than the old Soviet bloc's anti-Western propaganda. It's not just Turkey's Islamists, but its secular nationalists, too. The anti-American hatred spewing from the Turkish media is uglier than Barbra Streisand at four in the morning.

The Turks tormented their Kurdish minority for decades - and express outrage when Kurds respond. Now they're threatening to invade northern Iraq, while whining that honor-killings, pervasive corruption and anti-Western venom shouldn't deny them membership in the EU.

Despite all that, we've got to kill this resolution. It's not the wording - but the timing.

Legislation similar to this has come up repeatedly in Congress, yet it's always been defeated - in 2000, because of pressure from the Clinton administration. But if the resolution passes the House and Senate now, the Turks plan to evict us from Incirlik airbase in southeastern Turkey, to halt our military over-flight privileges and to shut down the supply routes into northern Iraq.

That's what the Democrats are aiming at. This resolution isn't about justice for the Armenians. Not this time. It's a stunningly devious attempt to impede our war effort in Iraq and force premature troop withdrawals.

The Dems calculate that, without those flights and convoys, we won't be able to keep our troops adequately supplied. Key intelligence and strike missions would disappear.

The Pentagon might be able to improvise other options. But the loss of the base and those routes would definitely hurt our troops. Severely. An

the turks continue to get their ducks in a row for a serious incursion into northern iraq.  their parliment just voted by a massive majority to authorize the turkish army to proceed with said incursion.

What is interesting is that the Iraqi Vice President (who is himself a Kurd) that visited with the Turks earlier in the week and conceded in front of the TV cameras after the meeting that the Turkish Gov't have legitimate concerns. Recent attacks (within the last couple of weeks) have in fact resulted in 13 dead including Turkish Army personnel and civilians plus many wounded. For some reason the PKK is stiring the pot right now without Kurdish-Iraqi approval.

 

Turkey has a right to protect its border and the US/Iraqi's appear to agree with that. The Turkish President has also said that just because he has authority (good for one year) does not mean he has to use it. If the bandits stick their heads up he can play whack-a-mole on them though.

 

This is not the beginning of a broader war.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

So the grand scheme of things: the Armenians killed half a million Turk and Kurd muslims to ethnically and religiously cleanse their Christian state, and the Turks and Kurds retaliated by killing a huge number of Armenians and moving more to Syria. Sounds like Armenians are as guilty of genocide as the Turks are. The Armenians started a race-war and the Turks and Kurds finished it. Too bad, so sad. There is no parralel to the holocaust.

 

However there is a direct parralel to the conflict in Palestine. Do we condemn Israel for genocide too?

in my view, you half draw a line in the sand....

you say... we are not happy about past genocide and may slap you for it later but WE WILL NOT STAND FOR GENOCIDE OR ETHNIC CLEANSING NOW.

you then batter the living crap out of anybody who does it from now on.

 

give eveyone 24 hours to stop doing it and the go for them.

 

of course this is the ideal.... and it would require all the major powers to sign up and ACTUALLY enforce it, so that means China, Russia and USA all singing from the same hymnsheet...  might be tough over Sudan and Israel but if they were forced to conform then nobody else would dare do it....   :-)

 

Paul

 

Paul