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Subject: ALIENS CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING - SERIOUSLY!
RockyMTNClimber    6/21/2007 12:30:31 PM
This is to put a final nail in the coffin of global warming. Man can not change the earth's tempurature. No evidence has ever or will ever compell science to say that. This is a silly notion played for political and religious resons. Below is a well thought out essay that everyone who believes in global warming, leprichans, and the stork that delivers babies should read. Check Six Rocky "Aliens Cause Global Warming" A lecture by Michael Crichton California Institute of Technology Pasadena, CA January 17, 2003 My topic today sounds humorous but unfortunately I am serious. I am going to argue that extraterrestrials lie behind global warming. Or to speak more precisely, I will argue that a belief in extraterrestrials has paved the way, in a progression of steps, to a belief in global warming. Charting this progression of belief will be my task today. Let me say at once that I have no desire to discourage anyone from believing in either extraterrestrials or global warming. That would be quite impossible to do. Rather, I want to discuss the history of several widely-publicized beliefs and to point to what I consider an emerging crisis in the whole enterprise of science-namely the increasingly uneasy relationship between hard science and public policy. I have a special interest in this because of my own upbringing. I was born in the midst of World War II, and passed my formative years at the height of the Cold War. In school drills, I dutifully crawled under my desk in preparation for a nuclear attack. It was a time of widespread fear and uncertainty, but even as a child I believed that science represented the best and greatest hope for mankind. Even to a child, the contrast was clear between the world of politics-a world of hate and danger, of irrational beliefs and fears, of mass manipulation and disgraceful blots on human history. In contrast, science held different values-international in scope, forging friendships and working relationships across national boundaries and political systems, encouraging a dispassionate habit of thought, and ultimately leading to fresh knowledge and technology that would benefit all mankind. The world might not be a very good place, but science would make it better. And it did. In my lifetime, science has largely fulfilled its promise. Science has been the great intellectual adventure of our age, and a great hope for our troubled and restless world. But I did not expect science merely to extend lifespan, feed the hungry, cure disease, and shrink the world with jets and cell phones. I also expected science to banish the evils of human thought---prejudice and superstition, irrational beliefs and false fears. I expected science to be, in Carl Sagan's memorable phrase, "a candle in a demon haunted world." And here, I am not so pleased with the impact of science. Rather than serving as a cleansing force, science has in some instances been seduced by the more ancient lures of politics and publicity. Some of the demons that haunt our world in recent years are invented by scientists. The world has not benefited from permitting these demons to escape free. But let's look at how it came to pass. Cast your minds back to 1960. John F. Kennedy is president, commercial jet airplanes are just appearing, the biggest university mainframes have 12K of memory. And in Green Bank, West Virginia at the new National Radio Astronomy Observatory, a young astrophysicist named Frank Drake runs a two week project called Ozma, to search for extraterrestrial signals. A signal is received, to great excitement. It turns out to be false, but the excitement remains. In 1960, Drake organizes the first SETI conference, and came up with the now-famous Drake equation: N=N*fp ne fl fi fc fL Where N is the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy; fp is the fraction with planets; ne is the number of planets per star capable of supporting life; fl is the fraction of planets where life evolves; fi is the fraction where intelligent life evolves; and fc is the fraction that communicates; and fL is the fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live. This serious-looking equation gave SETI an serious footing as a legitimate intellectual inquiry. The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. And guesses-just so we're clear-are merely expressions of prejudice. Nor can there be "informed guesses." If you need to state how many planets with life choose to communicate, there is simply no way to make an informed guess. It's simply prejudice. As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless, and has nothing to do with science. I take the hard view that science involv
 
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Jeff_F_F    My fear   7/2/2007 12:45:22 PM
The real danger I see is that if we assume on an international level that the current warming is caused by human CO2 production, it will lead us to make decisions based on the assumption that current temperature increases are going to be a stable long term trend. The problem with this is that global warming is causing large areas of the world that were once uninhabitable to become inhabitable. The borders of the sahel are moving northward meaning that areas of the sahara desert are becoming usable for grazing land, and areas of the sahel that once could only support grazing are reaching the point that they can support farming. Similarly, areas of tundra in Canada and Siberia are becoming capable of supporting farmers.
 
What happens if it turns out that the current climate change is NOT caused by global CO2 levels? We need only turn to history to find out, because a similar situation occurred earlier this century. In the 30s global temperatures were rising much as they are now, causing many regions of Africa to become more habitable. This process reversed when temperatures became cooler eventually sparking fears of a new impending ice age. This caused drying throughout the African continent as the climate returned to its previous state and is most notable for sparking the massive famine in Ethiopia.
 
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Asymmetric    Pseudoscience   7/3/2007 6:26:30 AM
 

I feel as a physicist, I should really stand up for my fellow scientists on this one.

 

Global Warning is being fought over as a political issue in many debates by the left and the right. In the scientific community, there has been little doubt since the early 90’s that man is at least partly responsible for the changing climate of Earth. Now how much humanity is contributing to climate change and what the effects will be on the environment is where most scientists’s in this field of research dedicate there time to. The matter of what action to take is ultimately left in the hands of the Politian’s. Personally I believe most scientists are coming to terms with the fact that humanity is unlikely to implement the necessary measures to stop global warming and thus are general resigned to simply hoping to slow it down as much as possible and adapting to the changes.

 

However this is not what pisses me off. Frequently arguments erupt on this forum and one side will display there case and back it up with a Liberal/Socialist Source. This Source will then be instantly discredited just for its origin, normally being branded “pacifist-propaganda” or in some cases simply “communist”. Sometimes there’s justification sometimes there isn’t. I understand that this is fundamentally a Conservative US run website but that doesn’t excuse this behaviour. Here’s the flip side of the coin. On a number of matters of science most notably global warming and evolution (intelligent design isn’t even a bloody argument) Right wing Conservatives have a vested interest in proving them wrong either for economic grounds, as with global warming, or for moralities sake, as with creationism. The concept that globalisation may be responsible for humanities future woes must be denied at all costs, this leads to any and all counter theories being presented in an effort to make mans impact upon the planet seem like just one possibility of many alternatives, despite it being the only one that has held up to thousands of academic studies. The article presented in the original post reeks of the typical monthly anti-global warming story that some Conservative Medias run as there headlines, which in another month will be completely forgotten about.

 

I should point out that the abuse of science for politics is hardly new and it doesn’t have party lines. A number of environmentalists make claims verging on hysteria when they talk about it, making one wonder whether they are in fact talking about the apocalypse happening next Tuesday. Despite this the worst offenders of the last decade have been the Bush administration, who has pushed for creationism to be taught in a biology class which is simply deeming to science. Hell you don’t get to see scientists preaching in churches about the big bang (although that gives me an idea….)

 

And here’s a scientist much more capable of arguing my point than me (and no he’s not a socialist.)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXVeEQteazI&mode=related&search=

 
 
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Herald1234    Reiterate   7/3/2007 8:58:59 AM
Herald1234    Common sense.   6/22/2007 7:34:41 PM
1. Unlock the resources buried in the ground and you bring about a LOT of chemistry.
2. Nobody can successfully model a million variable model much less a billion variable model.
3. Frogs are dying off. An entire ORDER is going extinct.
4. Drop a ten kilometer in radius iron ball on the Earth at 15 kps and even the cockroaches will have a tough time surviving it.
5. Nobody was even lookong for an Ozone hole until somebody pointed a radar straight up and noticed something odd was going on. It could have been there all along; just not detected yet.
6. We havwe 150 years of reliable continuous weather data plus spot samplings from tree, rock,and ice cores to make up our climatological data base.
7. We don't even know the air current and ocean current patterns with any certainty as recently as 3,000 years ago.
 
What can we determine from the current global warming malarkey? Something is happening. We don't know what.. We have evidence that if you pumped enough energy to do work into the Earth; you can kill off 80%-90% of the Earth's existing species at one full swoop. We have more than one Chixculub event to confirm this in the geologic record. Are we pumping enough energy into the Earth via chemical poisoning and heat pollution to cause such a dramaticv change via a slow mechanism? 
 
Take it for what you will, the science isn't there to explain what is happening. A politician trying to ram policy down Humanity's collective throats based on some scattered data is a powermonger preying upon fear.
 
Instead of trying to suppress freedom in the name of attempting to dictate lifestyle and choice restrictions, an idiot , like Al Gore^1, should keep his ignorant mouth shut, dissappear, and let the ecologists, geologists, climatologists, and meteorologists do their jobs. The public's responsibility in this whole issue is to point a metaphorical gun at the scientists' heads and demand that they DO THE SCIENCE while the public, itself, educates itself; so that they can separate the charlatans from the investigators.
 
Herald
 
^1 Al Gore I mention specifically, as he is to my mind, the WORST example of a politician who misuses science to drive his political agenda down the collective public's throats.
 
There are Republican examples, but not on his scale of sheer scientific misunderstanding, stupidity, and lying when he just makes it up out of whole cloth and misreprersents his cherry picked data.
 
I personally believe that you can take 1-7 and make a good case that we have a dynamic unstable biosphere, aad that we don't understand how pumping work and poisons into it, the ecology, causes the local thermal transport cycles to change. This is how I ultimately see it.
 
Humans are anaimals. They have range. If they overburden the range, they change it.  A rancher, a practical edge effect ecologist; if there was ever was one, knows that you don't overgraze the range with too many cattle per acre, or you lose the future grassland replacement growback cycles-permanently.  
 
Herald  
 
.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    A true poster child for the wrong side of this arguement   7/3/2007 11:16:19 AM

 

I feel as a physicist, I should really stand up for my fellow scientists on this one. Oh Boy!


 


Global Warning is being fought over as a political issue in many debates by the left and the right. In the scientific community, there has been little doubt since the early 90’s that man is at least partly responsible for the changing climate of Earth. 
Hello Mr. Scientist. Thank you for stating something that is repeated over and over on one side of the scientific community and denied over and over with other scientists.  At best your community is at a divided stand off over this.
 
 Now how much humanity is contributing to climate change and what the effects will be on the environment is where most scientists’s in this field of research dedicate there time to. The matter of what action to take is ultimately left in the hands of the Politian’s. Personally I believe most scientists are coming to terms with the fact that humanity is unlikely to implement the necessary measures to stop global warming Here you have already made an  assumption which is incredibly scientific (how about supporting it?)  and which has immense impact on the world community. and thus are general resigned to simply hoping to slow it down as much as possible and adapting to the changes. Please if it is at all possible for you (hoping here you have an open mind) would you mind commenting on Mr Crichton's points about the way scientists have reacted in our pop culture world to the greater global warming discussion?

 


However this is not what pisses me off. Frequently arguments erupt on this forum and one side will display there case and back it up with a Liberal/Socialist Source. This Source will then be instantly discredited just for its origin, normally being branded “pacifist-propaganda” or in some cases simply “communist”. Thank you for finally coming to your point. No place above on this thread has anyone uttered the word communist pacifist, et.. You introduced it into the fray. Very interesting that a scientist has to appeal to base politics and name calling in order to sway us on this subject. Sometimes there’s justification sometimes there isn’t. I understand that this is fundamentally a Conservative US run website but that doesn’t excuse this behaviour. Here’s the flip side of the coin. On a number of matters of science most notably global warming and evolution (intelligent design isn’t even a bloody argument) Right wing Conservatives have a vested interest in proving them wrong either for economic grounds, as with global warming, or for moralities sake, as with creationism. The concept that globalization  Again all political terms you have introduced into a discussion about science, quite telling about you sir.... may be responsible for humanities future woes must be denied at all costs, this leads to any and all counter theories being presented in an effort to make mans impact upon the planet seem like just one possibility of many alternatives, despite it being the only one that has held up to thousands of academic studies. The article presented in the original post reeks of the typical monthly anti-global warming story that some Conservative Medias Rant continues... run as there headlines  I would love for you to use science and reasoned debate to discuss this. Saddly that is not represented within your arguement., which in another month will be completely forgotten about.


 


I should point out that the abuse of science for politics is hardly new and it doesn’t have party lines. And you seem to be a master in the field of not debating the topic of whether global warming is real. Instead you name call, and throw political invectives. You are a poster child for what is wrong with the scientific community (or at least you would be if you were a scientist)

 
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RockyMTNClimber    Weather Happens   7/3/2007 11:29:48 AM
 
The Earth, its star and its solar system companions have been evolving for over 3 billion years. Here is a scientific review of some of Mother Earth's tempurature variations. Interesting stuff...... Of coarse how the hell it happened without us around to influence it is the greatest mystery of our time!!
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
ht***tp://www.livescience.com/environment/050330_earth_tilt.html
 

In the past million years, the Earth experienced a major ice age about every 100,000 years. Scientists have several theories to explain this glacial cycle, but new research suggests the primary driving force is all in how the planet leans.

The Earth's rotation axis is not perpendicular to the plane in which it orbits the Sun. It's offset by 23.5 degrees. This tilt, or obliquity, explains why we have seasons and why places above the Arctic Circle have 24-hour darkness in winter and constant sunlight in the summer.

But the angle is not constant - it is currently decreasing from a maximum of 24 degrees towards a minimum of 22.5 degrees. This variation goes in a 40,000-year cycle.

Earth's Wobble ...

http://www.livescience.com/images/050330_precession_03.gif" width=133>
... is like the precession of a spinning top.

IMAGE: NASA

Peter Huybers of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution and Carl Wunsch of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have compared the timing of the tilt variations with that of the last seven ice ages. They found that the ends of those periods - called glacial terminations - corresponded to times of greatest tilt.

"The apparent reason for this is that the annual average sunlight in the higher latitudes is greater when the tilt is at maximum," Huybers told LiveScience in a telephone interview.

More sunlight seasonally hitting polar regions would help to melt the ice sheets. This tilt effect seems to explain why ice ages came more quickly - every 40,000 years, just like the tilt variations -- between two and one million years ago.

"Obliquity clearly was important at one point," Huybers said.

Colder planet

The researchers speculate that the glacier period has become longer in the last million years because the Earth has gotten slightly colder - the upshot being that every once in a while the planet misses a chance to thaw out.

The glacial cycles can be measured indirectly in the ratio of heavy to light oxygen in ocean sediments. Simply put, the more ice there is on Earth, the less light oxygen there is in the ocean. The oxygen ratio is recorded in the fossils of small organisms - called foraminifera, or forams for short - that make shells out of the available oxygen in the ocean.

"These 'bugs' have been around for a long time - living all across the ocean," Huybers said. "When they die, they fall to the seafloor and become part of the sediment."

Drilled out sediment cores from the seafloor show variations with depth in the ratio of heavy to light oxygen - an indication of changes in the amount of ice over time. This record of climate change goes back tens of millions of years.

By improving the dating of these sediments, Huybers and Wunsch have showed that rapid decreases in the oxygen ratio - corresponding to an abrupt melting of ice - occurred when the Earth had its largest tilt.

Other orbital oddities

The sig

 
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RockyMTNClimber    The Cost of True Science   7/3/2007 11:40:45 AM
What happens to scientists whom are trying to get this scientific discussion right? Here is an article from the March 11, 07 UK Times. There is no desire for debate or the scientific process among the true believers of global warming. As much as they deride other persons for their "religion" the characteristics of the global warming discussion take on a religious ferver all of their own.
 
ht****tp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/11/ngreen211.xml

Scientists who questioned mankind's impact on climate change have received death threats and claim to have been shunned by the scientific community.

They say the debate on global warming has been "hijacked" by a powerful alliance of politicians, scientists and environmentalists who have stifled all questioning about the true environmental impact of carbon dioxide emissions.

Timothy Ball, a former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg in Canada, has received five deaths threats by email since raising concerns about the degree to which man was affecting climate change.

One of the emails warned that, if he continued to speak out, he would not live to see further global warming.

"Western governments have pumped billions of dollars into careers and institutes and they feel threatened," said the professor.

"I can tolerate being called a sceptic because all scientists should be sceptics, but then they started calling us deniers, with all the connotations of the Holocaust. That is an obscenity. It has got really nasty and personal."

Last week, Professor Ball appeared in The Great Global Warming Swindle, a Channel 4 documentary in which several scientists claimed the theory of man-made global warming had become a "religion", forcing alternative explanations to be ignored.

Richard Lindzen, the professor of Atmospheric Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology - who also appeared on the documentary - recently claimed: "Scientists who dissent from the alarmism have seen their funds disappear, their work derided, and themselves labelled as industry stooges.......

Quoting from the Honorable Mr. Crichton's remarks again.....

Of course, any scientist can be charged as Galileo was charged. I just never thought I'd see the Scientific American in the role of mother church.

Is this what science has become? I hope not. But it is what it will become, unless there is a concerted effort by leading scientists to aggressively separate science from policy. The late Philip Handler, former president of the National Academy of Sciences, said that "Scientists best serve public policy by living within the ethics of science, not those of politics. If the scientific community will not unfrock the charlatans, the public will not discern the difference-science and the nation will suffer." Personally, I don't worry about the nation. But I do worry about science.

Thank you very much.
 
Personally I am all for an open debate on the topic but no religious sacrifices thank you very much.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Ahmen! Correct as usual!   7/3/2007 12:22:15 PM
Humans are anaimals. They have range. If they overburden the range, they change it.  A rancher, a practical edge effect ecologist; if there was ever was one, knows that you don't overgraze the range with too many cattle per acre, or you lose the future grassland replacement growback cycles-permanently.  
 
Herald  
 
 
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Asymmetric    Fine, have it your way   7/3/2007 7:03:27 PM




 

I feel as a physicist, I should really stand up for my fellow scientists on this one. Oh Boy!




 




Global Warning is being fought over as a political issue in many debates by the left and the right. In the scientific community, there has been little doubt since the early 90’s that man is at least partly responsible for the changing climate of Earth. 
Hello Mr. Scientist. Thank you for stating something that is repeated over and over on one side of the scientific community and denied over and over with other scientists.  At best your community is at a divided stand off over this.

 

 Now how much humanity is contributing to climate change and what the effects will be on the environment is where most scientists’s in this field of research dedicate there time to. The matter of what action to take is ultimately left in the hands of the Politian’s. Personally I believe most scientists are coming to terms with the fact that humanity is unlikely to implement the necessary measures to stop global warming Here you have already made an  assumption which is incredibly scientific (how about supporting it?)  and which has immense impact on the world community. and thus are general resigned to simply hoping to slow it down as much as possible and adapting to the changes. Please if it is at all possible for you (hoping here you have an open mind) would you mind commenting on Mr Crichton's points about the way scientists have reacted in our pop culture world to the greater global warming discussion?



 




However this is not what pisses me off. Frequently arguments erupt on this forum and one side will display there case and back it up with a Liberal/Socialist Source. This Source will then be instantly discredited just for its origin, normally being branded “pacifist-propaganda” or in some cases simply “communist”. Thank you for finally coming to your point. No place above on this thread has anyone uttered the word communist pacifist, et.. You introduced it into the fray. Very interesting that a scientist has to appeal to base politics and name calling in order to sway us on this subject. Sometimes there’s justification sometimes there isn’t. I understand that this is fundamentally a Conservative US run website but that doesn’t excuse this behaviour. Here’s the flip side of the coin. On a number of matters of science most notably global warming and evolution (intelligent design isn’t even a bloody argument) Right wing Conservatives have a vested interest in proving them wrong either for economic grounds, as with global warming, or for moralities sake, as with creationism. The concept that globalization  Again all political terms you have introduced into a discussion about science, quite telling about you sir.... may be responsible for humanities future woes must be denied at all costs, this leads to any and all counter theories being presented in an effort to make mans impact upon the planet seem like just one possibility of many alternatives, despite it being the only one that has held up to thousands of academic studies. The article presented in the original post reeks of the typical monthly anti-global warming story that some Conservative Medias Rant continues... run as there headlines  I would love for you to use science and reasoned debate to discuss this. Saddly that is not represented within your arguement., which in another month will be completely forgotten about.




 




I should point out that the abuse of science for politics is hardly new and it

 
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Asymmetric       7/3/2007 7:27:11 PM
 

 

While I think myself and Herald are pointing our fingers at different sides of the political spectrum I think it’s safe to say we both agree there is a vast amount of hysteria and political machination’s associated with the subject. I also think it is fair to say we both agree that human activity is at least in part responsible for climate change.

 

Now to what extent the environment will change and what political response is needed is where the answers become a little trickier…

 
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RockyMTNClimber    Thank you for responding!   7/3/2007 8:58:39 PM

 

 


While I think myself and Herald are pointing our fingers at different sides of the political spectrum I think it’s safe to say we both agree there is a vast amount of hysteria and political machination’s associated with the subject. I also think it is fair to say we both agree that human activity is at least in part responsible for climate change.


 


Now to what extent the environment will change and what political response is needed is where the answers become a little trickier…

I am pretty sure Herald's comments on this topic are quite consistent with the current state of scientific fact. Your earlier diatribe was political tripe that did  not belong in the discussion, except to point out how vacant the global warmer's arguments have become. - Rocky



My refusal to talk “science” is a response to Michael Crichton, that his arguments are riddled with illogical dichotomies, fallacies and irrelevant analogies. He isn’t skeptical analyzing the facts, he’s simply denying them.  

 

Why should I make a scientific case against him when he doesn’t make one for me to knock down?

 Well sir, what you did was regurgitate many popular MSM terms and political grievances with conservatives (I even outlined them in yellow for your convenience) that had nothing to do with the conversation we were having. I did specifically ask you if you could respond to the facts that there is no science that man is effecting our climate. None what-so-ever. Of course you declined that challenge! I even posted some additional data for you to review and respond to!

Very well Rocky, here’s the standard scientific response to Michael Crichton’s various straw-man arguments made during the course of his lecture. Next time I would suggest reading a mans critic’s before vindicating him, on the basis that he agrees with what you wish was true.
 
Crichton's comments stand firm against your challenge. I am happy you put up a opposite view for everyone to read and judge for themselves!
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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