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Subject: Turkey vs. Greece who better?
Irish Emo dudes    1/4/2007 7:32:39 PM
Greece spends 7 billion on their military and has american weapondry turkey spends 12 billion and also has american weapondry both used f-16's but turkey has ordered 100 f-35's not sure what greece is getting i think eurofighters...whose better militarily and who would win in a war (two different questions) and another thing i would like to know who is better trained?
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H.A.F       12/14/2008 9:07:47 PM
First of all don't forget:Our pilots are the trainers and you are trainees....Can i ask you something?Could you tell me a valid reason for Cyprous invasion?Please i'm so curious........We came across with very difficult situations and you know that..but still we are here..we had encounter many expansive nations like you but we defended our nation  we were always sucessful..
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kane       12/15/2008 3:25:45 PM

First of all don't forget:Our pilots are the trainers and you are trainees....Can i ask you something?Could you tell me a valid reason for Cyprous invasion?Please i'm so curious........We came across with very difficult situations and you know that..but still we are here..we had encounter many expansive nations like you but we defended our nation  we were always sucessful..

well it appears to me that your teachers, or whoever informed you about what went on were pretty biased. I've met many Greeks and many were like you though I've also met fella who were kind and well rational enough not believe every shit they heard.
Now I'll try to be as most objective as possible minding that both sides lack it for most of their population.
I've never heard Greek pilots training Turkish pilots but one thing I know is that Turkish pilots actually made pretty good scores on NATO exercises.  We know these fellas dogfight a lot and are pretty experinced...same goes for Greeks pilots. But you konw this is not something genetical it depends on person's skills. So saying we have the best this and that is ridicoulus. But could be true to a certain extend. One thing is obvious, both sides are well experinced and well trained and has good(Greeks has quality, Turks have quantity) inventory. Greeks have block 52+s, we have a large force of 30/40s but well we also have a significant amount of 50s too....or at least upgrading.
On to the next point.....Cyprus invasion? Well well, doN't worry we didn't invade it for no reason, we didn't had that embergo from west for no reason. We did that because our people there were actually suffering. I've been there and seen what was done. Though I am aware that how Turks reacted to that. And it was violent, I know it. But after all Greek Cypriots started it in 1958 by shooting a Turksih oice officer. Banning anything Turkish from government and changing everything totally to Greek. Haven't you heard of the motto of EOKA? They've clearly stated that the island was going to be washed iwth Turkish blood and cleaned of them.(as well as British)
Greece on the other hand wanted to make Cyprus part of them.......this is actually a very long topic we could argue on but it's not the place I suppose. Just wanted to tell you that it's just not the way you think. IMO one should be able to question what their government tells them.
And lastly, I don't mean to sound rude but Ottomans conquered and held Greece for 400 years. If you call it succesfully defending I doN't know what to say. Though there were certain attempts to kick Ottomans, it wasnt untill Ottoman empire was on it's way down because of contnious wars and not developing fast enough, as well as religious backwardness Greece had it's independance. One should also take into consideration the help Greeks had from west and Russians.
I'm not saying this to insult Greeks or anything, back then strong ate the weak. It was the rule....Greeks did the same when the had the power(see Alexander, Byzantine)
But you should take into consideration that Ottomans weren't as brutal as you are probably taught. Mind you I got these information from foreign historians as well as some real objective Turkish historians(who are not being liked by the, say nationalist side)
Ottomans by that time's standarts were very tolerant to differnt ethncities and religion in their empire. Yes, non-Muslims weren't treated equal to Christians, but Christians could actually live a pretty good life. In fact it was Christian who could go through dev&&51;irme(some sort of slavery but god I wish to be slave like that) and be a vizier. Or an elite army unit....they could get the best education available with very good amount of money paid and live in the one of that time's greatest city, Constantinople or Konstantinniye as the Ottomans called.
I do not hate Greeks, I do not hate any kind of people because of their nationality. What matters for me is the personality and one being rational. Now it appears to me that you're not my favorite kind of guy as you actually hate people because of their nationality. Not only that but you clearly base your assumptions on what you heard from very biased sources.
I have to admit not everybody in my country would think the way I do, especally a 17 year old but it all comes down to education IMO....that is what matters.
Oh and I actually respect Greek culture a lot and belvie we have lot in common. Heck Anatolian Turks have a good amount of Greek blood in their veins as well as Armenian and some other Balkan peoples....add
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CHE21QNZ       12/24/2008 6:00:20 PM
OKAY , what would happen if greece and Turkey get into a war???It would be close but ultimatley Greece would win.
  I believe that a war on land would lead giant destruction for both countries and would end in a stalemate expecially because of the nationalistic factors and the natural barriers.Basically If Turkey tries to invade Greece thay will lose and if  Greece tries to take over Turkey via land they will lose.The only way there could be territorial gain out of this will be through a treaty because of unbearable destruction of the military, airforce or cities.........And after stating this i think that Greece would win the war and get the better of this treaty...
  Popualtion wise Turkey is 70 mil and Greece is 12 mil...BUT 30+ of that population is Kurds who hate Turkey more then Greece , are equipped and have many organizations that fight Turkish soldiers and  attack turkish cities(PKK), and at the first sign of Turkish weakness or war will attack Turkey tuning this into a 2 boarder fight for  Turkey (considering Kurdistan and other former nations taken by turkey  are to the east of the country)Also the Greeks are better epuipped and better trained but this has been declining the last few years and although many have stated that the Turks have alot of german weapons so do the Greeks.  SO this aspect of  a war would most likely go to Greece....
  Navy wise Greece has the best navy in the Balkans and a better equipped and stable navy then Turkey, but a giant factor in this would also be the fact that many of the Greek islands are very well militarized and that the islands that were demiliterized  by Nato and UN because of the Imia problem were very close to Turkey and less close to the rest of the Greek islands....So Greece also has a better naval presence in the Aegean....A war via navies and ocean  would result in a Greek win....
  The hardest aspect of this war would be a war between air forces...Both countries have GREAT airforces with a very very slight advantage going to Turkey because of the fact that they also have a larger number of  planes actually made by them...But the last agreement between Greece and France included  planes/airforce help....acoupel of months ago with Bush as president the Turkish people  would have had a bigger help form the americans and a more reliable one but this has completely shifted since the election of Barak Obama who not only shares views with the Greeks but with the French as well......
 The last years the Turkish airforce has been flying Planes over Greece as an effort to make air space claims and cause fear in their opponents but this has only made things harder for them considering that Greeces air deffence has greatly improved and is MUCH more equipped and advanced considering missile deffence......
An airforce battle would end in a stalemate with Greece having cause more damage to major Turkish cities.
Also someone back there stated that the Turks are very ready to fight and would be more agressive but i think it is very even in this category based on the fact that in the crisis in Imia although Turkey was the agressor in the matter GREECE was the first to put up a flag on the island and bring the navy into it.....
The only thing i woudl give the Turks is a victory in Cyprus because of the fact that they have a better established army there....but ultimately the whole island would probably be claimed back by Greece at the end of the war....
Also Greece has more allies and suporters and Turkey has more enemies(serbs,bulgarians,cyprians,kurds,armenians etc.) the only real allies being FYROM(who at first move would be  englufed by the rest of the Balkan countries) and Albania (even in WW2 couldnt help Italy take Greece, and would have enought to deal with anger from serbs considering the Kosovo problem.)
This war would not end in Conquest but a treaty  between the two countries that would favor Greece , but both countries will have EXTREME damages and so owuld the Balkans as a whole with more of an outisde (UN,NATO) influence so in the long run it would cause corruption in both areas.......
This war will not end in anyone conquering anyone but instead in a treaty that wil
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CHE21QNZ       12/24/2008 6:10:44 PM

Well were talking about if they ever DO go to war

which i highly doubt

Turkey and Greece arent much of rivals anymore

lol, hell there's Greek soldiers in Izmir Turkey right now

if you dont believe me

write "Operation Destined Glory"

its a military exercise type thing with both Turks and Greeks

plus we wouldnt dare attack Greece, not cause of their Forces

because were trying to get into the European Union

they dont want Turkey


cause were muslim?

haha, if thats the reason then i dont want to be in the European Union

cause that would be very stupid of europeans to judge us like that...

but back to the rivalry

Greece has a better Navy

wait.. a much better navy, they're experienced and everyone knows that

but then the greeks would have to admit that we can whoop them on land

because we have experience with this whole PKK deal going on

Air, would be a problem cause both Turkey and Greece have very good Air Forces

personally i like the mock dogfights

it just goes to show that were not interested in killing eachother

but rather showing our skills with eachother

but i wish we were more than allies with greece

cause put both nations together... and you got a problem bigger than russia
i agree with 90% of your post and i really agree in the fact that both countries are only  waving their weapons at each other but just to show off and with no real intention to actually fight ...The thing i agree with the most is the last part...IF GREECE nad TURKEY were good friends both countries would 1.Have a great/better presence in the world 2.Would prosper and would be  one of the most ppowerful alliances..3.prosper as a whole with better team work in the AEGEAN .....but htis would be hard if  Turkey doesnt remove ther tropps from Cyprus..

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hetfield    you are wrong   1/26/2009 2:35:06 PM
greece spends 8bill for 177.000 soldiers and turkey 12 bil for 554.000 soldiers so greece
spend more for each unit.
and havent you ever hear of the hellenic underwater demolition command?
greece spends 3 times more money on each man . ( better equipment )
i think greece will lose but will fight till its last gramar of blood . and turkey will take heavy damage
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Geezer       4/22/2009 12:59:57 PM
Turkey has 210 F-16 Block 30/40/50

Greece has 100 Block52+  and 60 Block 30/50  F-16.

One might think, OK, 210 F-16 against 160 thats a big differnce but...

A Block52+  F-16 has a better MMC, better engines thus thrust/weight ratio, better radar with 33% extented detection range, conformal fuel tanks, Link 16, head-mounted display with IRIS-T missiles.

If you still don't get it, i will make it easier for you...

--Block 52+ (the core f-16 version in HAF) will be detecting and engaging in BVR the TUAF's older F-16 blocks much earlier. THe TUAF f-16 will be receiving AMRAAMS before even detecting the core HAF f-16s.
--The conformal fule tanks will offer more mission time, without the aerodynamics and weapon load compromises of the external fuel tanks.
--HMD+IRIS-T offer a significant advantage on dogfights, with a much larger cone of missile engagement. TUAF does not have a clue on how to deal with such a system, since its introduction changes the dogfight concept fundamentally.
--The link16 offers easy connectivity with the 4 HAF EMB-145 Erieyes (already fully operational), forming a formitable interception system with advanced tactical capabilities that the TUAF does not have, yet.]

In addition Greece has 45 Mirages2000. Namely 25  M2000-5 Mk2 and  20 EGM3/BGM, able of carrying MICA, R550, 530D, Exocets and Scalp-EG (90 in the greek inventory).

So we look at 210 "modern" fighters against 205, with the last having significant qualitative advantage.

When we speak of a stronger or larger TUAF, we refer to a numerical advantage not on modern fighters but on really old aircraft.

TUAF has 52 upgrated F-4E 2020 Terminator, air-to-ground oriented. 40 F-5 2000 and another 100-140 old F-4E.

On the other hand HAF deploys 45  A-7 and 35 upgrated F-4E PI2000,  air-to-air oriented, fit with new radar, avionics, structural upgrated, and capable opf firing AMRAAMS and IRIS-T.

So the quantative advantage of TUAF now is more clear, it is an advantage only on old aircraft and not on modern fighters. The declaration of quantative edge over qualitative edge must be put up with this in mind.
We are just looking at 100+something more old planes, and one has to struggle to put up some logic on how this will be a force multiplier on a possible Greece-Turkey conflict.

Now think again the almost inexistent ground-to-air cababilities of the Turks and the respective advanced such capabilities of the Greeks, that deploy a huge variety of systems such as S-300, Patriot, OSA-8, TOR-M1, Crotale NG, Improved HAWK, SKYGUARD (AIM-7).
Coverage of HAWKS, Patriot and S-300:
In the islands and in mainland there is a layer of TOR-M1, OSA-8 and Crotale NG as well ;-)
Try also to guess the detection range of Aegean island-based radars deep into Turkey and what this means in terms of early warning.

Both the Aegean islands (the theatre of a possible confilct) and all major Greek military and industrial installations are heavily defended by these systems.
On the other hand the Turkish installations are "naked", the Scalp-EGs (and future Scalp navalles) will be "partying" on turkish airfileds, industry, etc, striking a dreadfull infastrucure blow in a few minutes.
Try to imagine the Bosporus bridges, major industrial areas, airfields, etc, blown to pieces in the first few hours of a conflict, will Turkey be able to suffer such a blow?

What will the Turks be able to destroy in Greece? A number of Aegean island installations? Who cares? Will they be able to hit the industrial areas of Athens or Thessaloniki? or the major airforce and naval bases?

The debate can continue for long if you include the Navies and armies as well, but i am sticking to airforces since the conflict will be judged on air as it seems.

Now, the thoughts of the user "pseudocode" are very logical, but i think he lacks of information on Greek economy and its nature, thus his declaration is somewhat doomed to inaccuracy. Greece generates revenues mostly from services and not from industry+low wages as Turkey does.
Almost all Greek industrial operations that need cheap labour are placed in the Balkan countries, also a vast portion of services (telecoms, finance, etc) are spread on  Balkans, some even in... Turkey.
 In the most possible scenario, that is a conflict of some days, the Turks  have more to loose from infstructure destruction. And take again into account that Greeks can defend their infrastrucure really effectivelly, not only by interceptions but with point defence
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Geezer       4/22/2009 1:28:52 PM
Again i am stressing that we are talking about a few days conflict.

There is not even a chance of Greece attacking first. It will start probably with the application of turkish "casus beli" on teritorial waters extention or by a "grey zone" incident as in 1996.

We are looking at a TUAF raid on military installation and an amphibious operation with many branches in a number of Greek islands as diversion.

In my opinion it all comes down in how is going to gain air-superiority in the first hours of the conflict.

But i think in a balanced situation the Turks will be able to land some troops at least to a couple of Greek islands.

All Greek islands have mixed composition Battalions on them with the task of fending off an amphibious operations. These have battle tanks which the Turks will not be able to land initially. Also OSA-8 and ASRAAD are defending the skies.
It all comes up to whether the Greek will be able to reinforce the island defences before they are anihilated.

All this will last for a few days. The victor will be the one that will get a better deal on the negotiations forced later.

Both Turkey and Greece are NATO members and NATO will not tolerate a long conflict by no means. Also Greece is an EU member and has a strong strategic alliance with France and Russia in a much lesser extend.

The short duration of the conflict is eminent, it is at least stupid  to debate on a major war between Greece and Turkey.

The manpower etc will play no role. What one needs firstly is a modern airforce wil advanced cababilities and excellent reaction times.

Following one needs also a logic sized interdisciplinary rapid reation force, well trained, with modern equipment and organization.

Greece seems to have all these, so it stands a very good chance of emerging victorious from a possible Greco-turkish conflict.
The Turks (not the forum ones probably, but their military leaders for sure) comprehent this fact very very well, and thats why the Greek are portrayed as... they are...

Lol Turkey of the 70 millions, Turkey the peripheral power, Turkey the dynamic economy, is being preoccupied by the Greek threat... :-))

Well, i guess -dudging from the Turkish stance- that it should better be, for sure ;-)
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justin    Justin   4/28/2009 5:23:07 AM
Firstly, both Turkey and Greece are Nato members and so neither country has an advantage. Turkey has one up on Greece due to a population seven times as large as Greece's .... But Israel is proof that size does not matter but rather leadership and ofcourse best use of arms. Turkey has a major obstacle.... it has internal issues, the Armenians and the Kurds are ready and waiting. Greece has the Aegean islands many fitted with early detection and missile devices so if a Turkish plane happened to make it through it would be very lucky. Greece also has a big and powerful navy. To conclude both Turkey and Greece spend a considerable degree of their GDP on aramaments and ofcourse the US loves this..... imagine if both countries stopped being played and decided to spend a minimum for defence only and began to Turk..... I mean talk.      
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strat-T21C       4/28/2009 11:49:18 AM

Greece spends 7 billion on their military and has american weapondry
turkey spends 12 billion and also has american weapondry
both used f-16's but turkey has ordered 100 f-35's not sure what greece is getting i think eurofighters...whose better militarily and who would win in a war (two different questions) and another thing i would like to know who is better trained?
Have the two nations not been holding joint exercises together? I tought relations were improving. Turkey has also made a policy statement regarding the shifting of priority to the East and NorthEast. It's not going to happen(Turkey vs Greece), as for who's better, when I was in Cyprus in '88, the Turks looked more switched on. (just my observation, not a statment of fact to start a arguement).

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french stratege       4/28/2009 1:50:32 PM
Greece has a qualitative edge in training, equipement and is easier to defend
Moreover Turks are only equiped with US equipement , while Greece has more diversified equipement.
US try to maintain a balance between them and Turkey is really important for USA,  but not Europeans suppliers
Indeed US delivered roughly same quantity of AMRAAM (small one) but Greece added more BVR missiles by ordering hundreds of MICA from French.
So Greece has 750 modern BVR missiles including 150 AMRAAM C and 300 MIca vs less than 450 for Turks (most A and B versions) and just 100 AMRAAM C on delivery, plus 90 cruise missiles for Greece vs 50 shorter range for Turks
Europeans prefer clearly Greece than Turkey and Greece was accepted in EU.
So Greecs now quite well Turks equipment, has access to best EU technology, while reverse is no true.
I would add that an unknow equipement is more difficult to fight and to jam.
On air force which what matters on this theater, Greece should have the edge like in the past...if they are able to sustain this edge by procuring new systems which is not granted with economic crisis.
Moreover the Turks has also to preserve a part of their forces for their neighbours which are quite more dangerous than Greece neighbors.
So until now, Greece has not a lot to fear.I would not bet a dollar on a Turkish win.
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