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Subject: Turkey vs. Greece who better?
Irish Emo dudes    1/4/2007 7:32:39 PM
Greece spends 7 billion on their military and has american weapondry turkey spends 12 billion and also has american weapondry both used f-16's but turkey has ordered 100 f-35's not sure what greece is getting i think eurofighters...whose better militarily and who would win in a war (two different questions) and another thing i would like to know who is better trained?
 
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kane       3/26/2007 1:53:19 PM

A few comments:

 

1) Kane on your 4-1 comment. Regardless of the result or outcome of what happens now, Greece still is European Champions, something that Turkey ( a fine footballing nation in it's own right) cannot proclaim. 

 

2) Turkey is known to have the better Air Force from the two with some building techniques, however those building techniques are only used under authorization by the licensees.  This negates Turkey's Defense building industry as they are in the same position as Greece in this respect. 

 

3)However, as Turkey remains powerful in the Air, Greece remains just as powerful in the Sea.  The Greek navy is known as one of the most advanced and best trained in the world.   Military aside for one moment, Greek sailors, captains and all ranks on the high seas are known to be amongst the best (except for Norwegian Captains). Couple this with Greece's 75% dominance of the world's shipping fleet, as well as a history rich in sea. 

 

4) Update:  Turkey 1- Greece 1

 

5)The overall decision maker in this respect would be who the invading army is.  If Greece invaded Turkey, they would probably just make their way a few miles past the coastline.  however if Turkey invaded Greece, they would only be able to capture a few smaller Greek islands away from the Greek Navy.  Greece's terrain is something they have used for thousands of years to their advantage and has proved worthy many times over.  Land battle would go simply to the defending nation. 

 

6) Turks and Greeks have been on a level of unseen freindliness.  I do not beleive that both nations would ever go to war once again as it is to their own detriment.  They now have powerful economies.  Turkey with scale, Greece with stability.  The region has seen a booming tourist market and trade between the two nation has increased to the highest ever.  Their may still be bad vibes, but generation after generation this will minimize.  As an american citizen, I do not want a war between these two nations, however if their would be one, I beleive it is to everyones interest to have it subside as fast as possible.  This means that Air and Sea battles would take place and they would be equal.  Who wins with this?  The nations you buy defense products of all types win.  More money for us!  Thanks Turks and Greeks!


Good points there mr.American
But about the football thing, you'll see Greeks won't see much succes in football for a long time.They were relying on their defense that why wathcing them was very boring.
But this last match was fun 4-1 :)
 
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Skiros13    Greek Football   3/26/2007 2:25:54 PM
It was sad to see the European Champions Embarassed at home.  Rehaghle has a loyalty for the older players.  He also changed from a 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3, which left gaps.   He brought Dellas back, who is why beyond his years.  He had Gekas, who leads the Budesleague in goals sitting on the bench for Charisteas.   He has younger better players that sit on the bench, like Salpinidis, and the back line that shut out Norway.   Also, It seem that Nichopolidis was worried about what was going on behind the net verses in front of it.  I'm sorry to say as a Greek I was embarassed by the performance of some fans.  Their is never a need to throw bottles and sticks on the pitch.   But thier was clapping for the Turks by the Greeks at the end of the game.   
 
You have to give credit to the Turks.  They played a great game.   They could have packed it in after the first goal, but they didn't
 
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Skiros13    Greek Football   3/26/2007 2:25:58 PM
It was sad to see the European Champions Embarassed at home.  Rehaghle has a loyalty for the older players.  He also changed from a 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3, which left gaps.   He brought Dellas back, who is why beyond his years.  He had Gekas, who leads the Budesleague in goals sitting on the bench for Charisteas.   He has younger better players that sit on the bench, like Salpinidis, and the back line that shut out Norway.   Also, It seem that Nichopolidis was worried about what was going on behind the net verses in front of it.  I'm sorry to say as a Greek I was embarassed by the performance of some fans.  Their is never a need to throw bottles and sticks on the pitch.   But thier was clapping for the Turks by the Greeks at the end of the game.   
 
You have to give credit to the Turks.  They played a great game.   They could have packed it in after the first goal, but they didn't
 
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Leonidas       3/26/2007 4:01:58 PM
I was born in Greece; I am European and I am now a US Citizen living in Chicago. I have some knowledge on the subject.
 
No one knows how a conflict would end. I hope it will not happen, as I do not feel that the Turks are "bad" people. They are just fine folks. I hope that this perceived "connection" or "rivalry" between Greece and Turkey would end. These are two different types of people. Who is better, is a not an intelligent question.
 
Turkey maintains a numerical superiority; they are just more. The Greeks counter that threat with much better weapons. The Hellenic Armed Forces  are not exactly "naked", as some Turks may like to think.
 
(a) The Hellenic Air Force flies planes Turkey does not have (F16 Block 52+s and Mirage 2000-5s which are no joke 
planes; God Bless France and Dassault for that). There is no Turkish air superiority. Instead, there IS balance. Each side has an about equal number of fighters with the Greeks having a quality & tactical advantage thru planes Turkey does not 
have. Add to the above two types, the strike Corsair A7 (which will be retired in phases as soon as the new batch of 30 F16 Block 52+s are delivered in 2009 or when the Eurofighters get ordered). Yes, Turkey has more F16s (majority is 
older F16 Block 40s and newer Block 50s), but the Greeks balance that difference with the better planes: Mirages 
2000-5 and F16s Block 52+ and Block 50s (backbone of the Hellenic Airforce is F16 Block 50) as well as the A7s. 
The Hellenic Airforce uses its F16s for air superiority and strike roles and the A7s for pure strike. The Turks use their  F16s for both type of roles. The Hellenic Aiforce uses its Mirage 2000-5 for air superiority and naval support thru the 
use of the numerous Exocet/HARPOON missiles and 90 cruise GPS guided SCALP missiles (thanks to France and Aerospatiale). The Turks still use F-5s, which the Hellenic Airforce has retire. Both airforces use updgraded Phantom F4 planes.
 
(b) The AWACS used by the Hellenic Airforce are top noch; microwave based technology made in Sweden (Ericcson). 
Turkey does not have that staff. Turkey uses the US made AWAC system, which is great but it does not "see" as far in range as the  Swedish system does.
 
(c) The Hellenic air defence is brand new and multilayered, using newest Patriot and S300 systems (now they are 
talking  about acquiring/upgrading to S400 which can see stealth) for long range tracking and target engagement. NEW systems for middle and short range threat engagement are deployed. The equipment is made in France (Crotale), Russia (TOR M1). 
 
(d) The Hellenic Navy has the capacity to blocade Cyprus and maintain full presense in the Aegean (traditionally, the Greeks have been a naval nation). It is being enhanced with top noch S214 submarines, which Turkey does not have. These vessels are made in Greece and Germany. Consider the new frigate procurements and the Super Vita Fast Attack crafts the Hellenic Navy is equipped, procured from Vornycroft (British company). Consider the quick response landing capability the Hellenic Navy has now thru its Hovercraft fleet (large Zubr class crafts made in Russia and medium size made in th UK).Turkey does not have that staff.
 
(e) The Hellenic Army's number of tanks is NOT inferior to Turkey's. I do not know whether Turkey manufactures tanks. The Hellenic Army has more modern tanks the Turks have; I am talking about the new Leopard types (2A6 and 2A4). The army is using the Apache attack helicopters (Longbow configuration as well) the Turks DO NOT have. Consider the upgraded capability of the Hellenic Artilery with systems such as the ATACMS, MLRS  (Turkey also has these systems) and the top noch German made self propelled Howitzer system PzH 2000s (I do not know whether Turkey uses it). Yes, Turkey has more manpower but NOT better equipment. Plus, a war conflict would have taken place in the sea and air, not on land. The Greeks have enough equipment to defend their land front.
 
(f) In the 15 years 1990 to 2005, the Turkish Armed Forces budgetted $150 Billion for arms procurements. The budget for the Hellenic Armed Forces was $125 Billion. Turkey is 6 times larger than Greece (population and area) and is surrounded by threats (Kurds, Russia, Syria, Iran, Iraq and ... Greece). The ratio of $125/$150 is NOT 1/6 and the Greeks spend all that money to just deal with Turkey. Greece is NOT surrounded by similar threats the Turks face. Who spends more money now for arms? Sadly, the Greeks do.
 
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Leonidas       3/26/2007 6:30:05 PM
Read my posting if you would like. Turkey has a numerical advantage in manpower. Turkey neither has more fighters nor better planes. Both fly an about equal number of jets, while the Hellenic Air Force (HAF) operates better planes Turkey does not have: 60 F16 Block 52+ (30 more are due in 2009), 40 Mirage 2000-5 (15 more ordered and due for delivery), few F16 Block 30 and the rest are all F16 Block 50. The Hellenic Airforce flies about 60 Corsairs A7 purely for strike role and thus uses the F16s for air superiority. Both use upgraded Phantom F4 jets. Both airforces number about 240 jets or so. Remember that Turkey has to cover more land than Greece (6 to 1 area ratio) and each has about 240 planes. The fact that HAF flies planes Turkey does not, gives HAF a tactical advantage. The Turkish air force mainly F16 Block 30, Block 40 (their backbone) and Block 50s. Training-wise, I do not feel their pilots have an advantage. The HAF pilot that died recently, it was a result of an accident and  not of a calculated act. In 1996, a HAF Mirage 2000 intercepted a Turkish F16 over the island of Rhodes and splash it with a Magic-II missile. That was calculated. This stopped Turkish aggression over Rhodes. 
 
Regards,
Leo M. - Chicago. 
 
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Leonidas       3/26/2007 6:35:46 PM
That's correct. This is a known strategy; balance numerical superiority with high tech quality. The HAF has received great equipment from France and I hope they get even more. Besides the Mirage, Aerospatiale sold Exocets, cruise missiles SCALP, Magic (I and II) and Mica and some SAM system. I will look more into it. I think the deal between Papandreou and Francois Miteran has help us a lot dealing with (unheard for modern era) national issues.
 
Regards,
 
Leo M. - Chicago.
 
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Godofgamblers    kane   3/26/2007 8:53:20 PM
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, Kane!
 
And oh yeah... LONG LIVE TURKEY!.... and GREECE!
 
 
regards
 
GoG
 
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kane       3/27/2007 1:32:27 PM

I was born in Greece; I am European and I am now a US Citizen living in Chicago. I have some knowledge on the subject.

 

No one knows how a conflict would end. I hope it will not happen, as I do not feel that the Turks are "bad" people. They are just fine folks. I hope that this perceived "connection" or "rivalry" between Greece and Turkey would end. These are two different types of people. Who is better, is a not an intelligent question.

 

Turkey maintains a numerical superiority; they are just more. The Greeks counter that threat with much better weapons. The Hellenic Armed Forces  are not exactly "naked", as some Turks may like to think.

 

(a) The Hellenic Air Force flies planes Turkey does not have (F16 Block 52+s and Mirage 2000-5s which are no joke 
planes; God Bless France and Dassault for that). There is no Turkish air superiority. Instead, there IS balance. Each side has an about equal number of fighters with the Greeks having a quality & tactical advantage thru planes Turkey does not 
have. Add to the above two types, the strike Corsair A7 (which will be retired in phases as soon as the new batch of 30 F16 Block 52+s are delivered in 2009 or when the Eurofighters get ordered). Yes, Turkey has more F16s (majority is 
older F16 Block 40s and newer Block 50s), but the Greeks balance that difference with the better planes: Mirages 
2000-5 and F16s Block 52+ and Block 50s (backbone of the Hellenic Airforce is F16 Block 50) as well as the A7s. 
The Hellenic Airforce uses its F16s for air superiority and strike roles and the A7s for pure strike. The Turks use their  F16s for both type of roles. The Hellenic Aiforce uses its Mirage 2000-5 for air superiority and naval support thru the 
use of the numerous Exocet/HARPOON missiles and 90 cruise GPS guided SCALP missiles (thanks to France and Aerospatiale). The Turks still use F-5s, which the Hellenic Airforce has retire. Both airforces use updgraded Phantom F4 planes.

 

(b) The AWACS used by the Hellenic Airforce are top noch; microwave based technology made in Sweden (Ericcson). 
Turkey does not have that staff. Turkey uses the US made AWAC system, which is great but it does not "see" as far in range as the  Swedish system does.

 

(c) The Hellenic air defence is brand new and multilayered, using newest Patriot and S300 systems (now they are 
talking  about acquiring/upgrading to S400 which can see stealth) for long range tracking and target engagement. NEW systems for middle and short range threat engagement are deployed. The equipment is made in France (Crotale), Russia (TOR M1). 

 

(d) The Hellenic Navy has the capacity to blocade Cyprus and maintain full presense in the Aegean (traditionally, the Greeks have been a naval nation). It is being enhanced with top noch S214 submarines, which Turkey does not have. These vessels are made in Greece and Germany. Consider the new frigate procurements and the Super Vita Fast Attack crafts the Hellenic Navy is equipped, procured from Vornycroft (British company). Consider the quick response landing capability the Hellenic Navy has now thru its Hovercraft fleet (large Zubr class crafts made in Russia and medium size made in th UK).Turkey does not have that staff.

 

(e) The Hellenic Army's number of tanks is NOT inferior to Turkey's. I do not know whether Turkey manufactures tanks. The Hellenic Army has more modern tanks the Turks have; I am talking about the new Leopard types (2A6 and 2A4). The army is using the Apache attack helicopters (Longbow configuration as well) the Turks DO NOT have. Consider the upgraded capability of the Hellenic Artilery with systems such as the ATACMS, MLRS  (Turkey also has these systems) and the top noch German made self propelled Howitzer system PzH 2000s (I do not know whether Turkey uses it). Yes, Turkey has more manpower but NOT better equipment. Plus, a war conflict would have taken place in the sea and air, not on land. The Greeks have enough equipment to defend their land front.

 

(f) In the 15 years 1990 to 2005, the Turkish Armed Forces budgetted $150 Billion for arms procurements. The budget for the Hellenic Armed Forces was $125 Billion. Turkey is 6 times la
 
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galiwak       3/27/2007 9:53:49 PM
OK I heard enough.  First of all for those of you who think one side will surprise the other you are gravely mistaken.   Both sides have spies and radar that will pickup any planes or ships leaving Turkey or Greece.  Both military are in the process of replacing alot of their 1960s equipment.  So one side just doesn't have the firepower to completely overrun the other.   Further Turkey cannot commit all their forces  to their boarders with Greece.  Every boarder Turkey has is hostile.
It wouldn't surprise me if their old friends the Kurds wouldn't take advantage of this opportunity. Also do you guys know what the terrain is like in Northern Greece.   During the winter most of those areas are hard to drive through and so you cannot afford the war to last very long.     How are you going to support your troops.  So lets say Turkey takes the islands.  Again how to you plan to support them.    Turkey doesn't have the naval power and again the greeks will know they are coming.   The Greek force in the North  is all armored divisions that just need to hold turkey from advancing.    Again army sidze and equipment won't matter because the terrain doesn't give you the advantage.  You can have a billion troops and you would still have to march single file.   I hope I didn't spoil everyones brain storming


 
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GOP       3/27/2007 11:16:45 PM

Ok we're in the 21 th century and it's too bad that the people who are non-Turk still think the same way about Turks

Look guys Turks are not Arabs
Not all the Turks are Muslims----Turk=/=Muslim
90%of the pop is Muslim-but Turkry is secular
Well more secular than Israel
BTW no Muslim country will help Turkey because they think we are aganist Islam

Kane, no disrespect intended whatsoever, but what would you consider yourself? For example, people in Europe are European, people in the US/Canada could be considered North American, etc. The Europeans don't want you, the Muslims can't stand you, so what are you guys?
By the way, I am pro-Turkey.

 
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