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Subject: New (17/11) aggressive behaviour by Israeli pilots against French units in Lebanon
Alexis    11/17/2006 7:02:24 PM
I haven't found a link in English yet. Here is one in French : http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20061117.WWW000000454_nouvel_incident_entre_avions_israeliens_et_casques_bleus_francais_au_liban.html In a nutshell : 2 Israeli F15 overflew at low altitude and high speed UNIFIL French positions while 2 Israeli reconnaissance aircraft were circling the French HQ in Lebanon. Again, French soldiers prepared themselves to shoot down the aggressive planes. Again, they kept enough cold blood not to do it. What is very troubling is that this is the SECOND such incident (first was 31/10) The first one could be explained away as "some moronic pilots thought they could prove their manhood by risking their aircraft and life, which led to their superiors hanging them out to dry, but privately so, denying the incident in public" The second such incident proves that either Israeli superiors are VERY stupid (not probable, though not entirely impossible : the operative word would be hubris), either this is a POLICY. The second possibility would mean that the Israeli government, or at least elements of the military high command, are pushing for an incident to happen, that such a provocation would result in missiles being fired at the seeming aggressors and either an Israeli fighter plus its pilot would be lost (more probable) or at least if the missile did not hit an hostile act would have happened. Play with feelings of some moronic pilots, explain them that the French are hostile and that Israeli fighters are invulnerable, and this is what you would obtain : eventually one of those would get himself fired at, probably shot down, probably dead. And then what ? This is really troubling because the objective cannot be the usual anti-French propaganda : you do not lose one of your fighters and one of your pilots just for propaganda. Could the objective be to try to terminate the UNIFIL mission by frightening away its member nations ? Could it be to justify new Israeli attacks in Lebanon, aimed at UNIFIL, using the numbers of Israeli armed forces to overcome the well-armed but few in numbers French contingent ? (the other UNIFIL contingents don't have MBTs nor artillery) That hypothesis would be SO moronic (so much of hubris, to use a more precise word) that one has to retain doubts. However, this series of provocations HAS to have an objective.
 
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DarthAmerica       11/18/2006 6:04:13 PM

Oh come one S2.... Hezbolah wanting the end of Israel is down to their rabid relgious hate for Israel, and Israel.  Syria et al did a good job of fecking up the region, but now they have seen the light and departed.  Perhaps Israel could use opening her eyes also?

I do love the way you lot see things so black and white though.  Its amazing how one second you can be yelling at Lebanon for being weak and not doing enough, and the next yelling for Israel to infringe on Lebanons sovereignty all the more.

Yimmy,

Are you feigning ignorance of the situation? What is unclear about the fact that Lebanon is not a sovereign entity so long as it is run by and harbors the POG? What would the UK do if the IRA was clandestinely running a neighboring government , plotting the UK's destruction and rearming while being sheltered by an allegedly neutral international peacekeeping force? You know the answer so stop pretending not to understand the Israelis and being needlessly antagonistic.


DA
 
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S-2    Yimmy Reply   11/18/2006 6:09:54 PM
"Hezbolah wanting the end of Israel is down to their rabid relgious hate for Israel, and Israel. .."

Excuse me?  I'm afraid that the above makes no sense to me.  "...wanting the end"  Destroy?  Eradicate? Uh, yeah, but that's Israel's fault, right?  
 
Syria et al did a good job of fecking up the region, but now they have seen the light and departed.  Perhaps Israel could use opening her eyes also?
 
Who from your "et al" departed with Syria-their intelligence agents/apparatus?  Naw.  They're still in Lebanon whacking the interference.  
 
Meanwhile, to where would you suggest Israelis depart? New York?  UNIFIL certified Israel's departure from Lebanon in early September.  Haven't been back since, though only because of their amazing forebearance.  UNIFIL is particularly scrupulous about counting Israelis as they leave.  Sad that they can't show the same impartial professional excellence with the POG.  Yimmy, not one person here-NOT ONE has yet contended that POG isn't rearming, rebuilding their fortifications, and reconstituting their forces in the south.
 
Will you be the first to say that, today, POG's hands are clean as the driven snow?  If not, ask yourself what is UNIFIL's raison d'etre.  That should be simple enough. 

I do love the way you lot see things so black and white though.  Its amazing how one second you can be yelling at Lebanon for being weak and not doing enough, and the next yelling for Israel to infringe on Lebanons sovereignty all the more."
 
"...black and white..."?  I'm the guy who used the word BYZANTINE.  That's hardly a synonym for clarity.  Yelling?  I don't know about you, but I type.  Your two "observations" are accidently one of (only?)your best.  A rather crass summary of my perspective but, yeah, abdication of national sovereignty to a militia bent upon the DESTRUCTION of a neighboring nation might provoke those complementary responses.
 
Yimmy, have you read the UNIFIL mandate?  Do so.  U.N.I.F.I.L.
 
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Yimmy       11/18/2006 6:35:56 PM
Yimmy,

Are you feigning ignorance of the situation? What is unclear about the fact that Lebanon is not a sovereign entity so long as it is run by and harbors the POG? What would the UK do if the IRA was clandestinely running a neighboring government , plotting the UK's destruction and rearming while being sheltered by an allegedly neutral international peacekeeping force? You know the answer so stop pretending not to understand the Israelis and being needlessly antagonistic.


DA
Darth, I honestly don't mean to belittle your opinion here, but you don't know what you are talking about.
I agree that the Lebanon is not a soverign state.  However I have seen no evidence pointing to the legitimate state government harbouring terrorists.  My argument, is that for a state to be soverign, it has to have total domination over its land and people, and it has to be recognised by other states (this dates back to Westphalia).  The Lebanon, does not have complete control of its land and people because of the strength of Hezbolah (I don't think the government harbours Hezbolah, I think they are struggling for control of the state with Hezbolah).  While the Lebanon is not recognised by other states, as other states (ie Israel), blatantly disregards Lebanons borders.
 
As for the IRA Darth, they have had a political say in Northern and Southern Irish politics for years. Ever heard of Sinn Fein?

 
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Yimmy       11/18/2006 6:43:16 PM

This is by far the most rabid post of yours so far.

"Hezbolah wanting the end of Israel is down to their rabid relgious hate for Israel, and Israel. .."

Excuse me?  I'm afraid that the above makes no sense to me.  "...wanting the end"  Destroy?  Eradicate? Uh, yeah, but that's Israel's fault, right?  
 
Yes S2, that is partly Israels fault.  They nothing but aided in the creation of these radical Muslims by their internal and external policies, which the Palestinians obviously see as oppressive.  I am not saying Israel is to blame alone, but they certainly have not made any friends in the region. 
 
Syria et al did a good job of fecking up the region, but now they have seen the light and departed.  Perhaps Israel could use opening her eyes also?


Meanwhile, to where would you suggest Israelis depart? New York?  UNIFIL certified Israel's departure from Lebanon in early September.  Haven't been back since, though only because of their amazing forebearance. 
 
Excuse me, but yes they have been back, and repeatedly.  Or didn't all those Israeli incursions into Lebanese air space take place?
 
.  Yimmy, not one person here-NOT ONE has yet contended that POG isn't rearming, rebuilding their fortifications, and reconstituting their forces in the south.
 
Of course they are.  But then that is not what we are arguing about is it.  I certainly think that the UN should be doing a lot more to disarm the terrorists myself.  What do you think?

 

Will you be the first to say that, today, POG's hands are clean as the driven snow? 
 
Come again?


I do love the way you lot see things so black and white though.  Its amazing how one second you can be yelling at Lebanon for being weak and not doing enough, and the next yelling for Israel to infringe on Lebanons sovereignty all the more."

 

"...black and white..."?  I'm the guy who used the word BYZANTINE. 
 
I wasn't refering to you, sorry for the lack of direction in my statement.

 

Yimmy, have you read the UNIFIL mandate?  Do so.  U.N.I.F.I.L.

I have thanks.



 
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S-2    Yimmy Reply   11/18/2006 6:48:00 PM
"The Lebanon, does not have complete control of its land and people because of the strength of Hezbolah (I don't think the government harbours Hezbolah, I think they are struggling for control of the state with Hezbolah).  While the Lebanon is not recognised by other states, as other states (ie Israel), blatantly disregards Lebanons borders."
 
Yimmy, you've not yet earned your desk in the British Foreign Ministry.  Lebanon is a duly recognized nation.  It is the sole sovereign authority over Lebanon.  It has recognized and chartered POG as a political party within it's government...
 
then it's abdicated it's de facto authority over the south.  This is painful but, again, go to UNIFIL's website to note just how many times the Lebanese Army has REFUSED to deploy south to the BLUE Line.  Something to which the Lebanese government has concurred each time that UNIFIL's mandate has been extended.  Until September of this year, not once in twenty eight years has the Lebanese Army ATTEMPTED to move south.
 
You're not even close and, like Siniora, you appear to wish for sovereignty and deniability in one felt swoop.  Sweet.
 
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DarthAmerica       11/18/2006 7:03:45 PM

Yimmy,

Are you feigning ignorance of the situation? What is unclear about the fact that Lebanon is not a sovereign entity so long as it is run by and harbors the POG? What would the UK do if the IRA was clandestinely running a neighboring government , plotting the UK's destruction and rearming while being sheltered by an allegedly neutral international peacekeeping force? You know the answer so stop pretending not to understand the Israelis and being needlessly antagonistic.


DA
Darth, I honestly don't mean to belittle your opinion here, but you don't know what you are talking about.

I agree that the Lebanon is not a soverign state.  However I have seen no evidence pointing to the legitimate state government harbouring terrorists.  My argument, is that for a state to be soverign, it has to have total domination over its land and people, and it has to be recognised by other states (this dates back to Westphalia).  The Lebanon, does not have complete control of its land and people because of the strength of Hezbolah (I don't think the government harbours Hezbolah, I think they are struggling for control of the state with Hezbolah).  While the Lebanon is not recognised by other states, as other states (ie Israel), blatantly disregards Lebanons borders.

As for the IRA Darth, they have had a political say in Northern and Southern Irish politics for years. Ever heard of Sinn Fein?


Yimmy, if you arent able to see evidence that Lebanon harbors the POG. Then the last thing I'm worried about is you being able to belittle my opinion. Look, just come out and say it straight up. You do not like Israel. That is the foundation on which your post are based. Its as simple as that.

Guess what? Its ok to not like Israel! Just dont pretend to view things through an objective lense when you post. We all see right through it and its why you draw the kind of criticism you do. If instead you just point out things as they are and rather than how you want them to be. Your post would gain a lot more respect even if we have different opinions, values and loyalties.


DA
 
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S-2    Yimmy Reply   11/18/2006 7:42:19 PM
"Oh come one S2.... Hezbolah wanting the ...I do love the way you see lot see things so black and white though..."
 
"I wasn't refering to you, sorry for the lack of direction in my statement." 
 
 Apology accepted.  To whom were you referring (please review your original post before answering)?
 
"Of course they are.  But then that is not what we are arguing about is it.  I certainly think that the UN should be doing a lot more to disarm the terrorists myself.  What do you think?"
 
Actually, it is exactly what I'm arguing.  You may dissemble all you wish, but until UNIFIL fulfills the role that it's perfectly adequate mandate allows, en toto, you and everybody else can learn to become comfortable to the sound of Israeli jets overhead.  "Of course they are".  Uh, excuse me, that's a rather blithe dismissal of the central point. 
 
You can't possibly be that obtuse.
 
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Yimmy       11/18/2006 7:47:46 PM
You both sound somewhat confused.
 
Firstly Darth, I am not anti-Israel.  I only look such because I keep arguing reason to those who are very pro-Israel.  I can see both sides of the conflict, and don't much care for either.
 
And S2, you really think Lebanon is in control of its own borders just because the foreign office says so? pfft
 
As for your mentioning the positioning of the states military.... without giving the reasons why they havent moved South, your point is completely meaningless.
 
And it is hardly as though Hezbolah are the only terrorist organisation with a political wing.
 
Both of you may as well shut your noise, neither of you are brining anything new to the table.
 
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S-2    Yimmy Reply   11/18/2006 7:48:04 PM
Ya know, Darth's right.
 
I've (and Shirrush) been down this road with you before.  It was painful then, and it is now.  It's o.k.  I'm beginning to understand the depth of vitriol directed at Israel that exists throughout Europe.  You really aren't unusual.
 
The moral chasm that exists between our two continents is widening daily.  Heaven help Israel because Europe never will. 
 
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Yimmy       11/19/2006 9:17:54 AM
 

The moral chasm that exists between our two continents is widening daily.  Heaven help Israel because Europe never will. 



Yeah... right.  And I suppose they just happen to find all those Mirages and Centurians under their beds one day.
 
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