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Subject: New (17/11) aggressive behaviour by Israeli pilots against French units in Lebanon
Alexis    11/17/2006 7:02:24 PM
I haven't found a link in English yet. Here is one in French : http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20061117.WWW000000454_nouvel_incident_entre_avions_israeliens_et_casques_bleus_francais_au_liban.html In a nutshell : 2 Israeli F15 overflew at low altitude and high speed UNIFIL French positions while 2 Israeli reconnaissance aircraft were circling the French HQ in Lebanon. Again, French soldiers prepared themselves to shoot down the aggressive planes. Again, they kept enough cold blood not to do it. What is very troubling is that this is the SECOND such incident (first was 31/10) The first one could be explained away as "some moronic pilots thought they could prove their manhood by risking their aircraft and life, which led to their superiors hanging them out to dry, but privately so, denying the incident in public" The second such incident proves that either Israeli superiors are VERY stupid (not probable, though not entirely impossible : the operative word would be hubris), either this is a POLICY. The second possibility would mean that the Israeli government, or at least elements of the military high command, are pushing for an incident to happen, that such a provocation would result in missiles being fired at the seeming aggressors and either an Israeli fighter plus its pilot would be lost (more probable) or at least if the missile did not hit an hostile act would have happened. Play with feelings of some moronic pilots, explain them that the French are hostile and that Israeli fighters are invulnerable, and this is what you would obtain : eventually one of those would get himself fired at, probably shot down, probably dead. And then what ? This is really troubling because the objective cannot be the usual anti-French propaganda : you do not lose one of your fighters and one of your pilots just for propaganda. Could the objective be to try to terminate the UNIFIL mission by frightening away its member nations ? Could it be to justify new Israeli attacks in Lebanon, aimed at UNIFIL, using the numbers of Israeli armed forces to overcome the well-armed but few in numbers French contingent ? (the other UNIFIL contingents don't have MBTs nor artillery) That hypothesis would be SO moronic (so much of hubris, to use a more precise word) that one has to retain doubts. However, this series of provocations HAS to have an objective.
 
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S-2    Yimmy/Alexis Reply   11/17/2006 9:20:10 PM
"I assume people do realise that every time an Israeli warplane enters Lebanon air-space it is a breach of international law and an act of war?"
 
Can we also assume that every time a POG rocket breaches Israeli airspace that would also be an "act of war".  BTW, against whom would a breach of Lebanese airspace be an "act of war"?  Lebanon?  Or POG?  Does POG pay rent to Lebanon?  Has Lebanon ceded sovereignty over the south to POG? 
 
Just as soon as Lebanon makes a determined effort to control it's lands, it may have a case to which I'd be sympathetic.  The U.N. equates breaches of airspace with raids, rocketing, mortaring, and shelling as "serious breaches", though I'll be damned if I know why?  Meanwhile, with UNIFIL in southern Lebanon since 1978, just how DID all those rockets and mortars find convenient firing positions  between July, 2000 and July, 2006.  Hmmmm....?
 
You count em'.  I can't.  Three thousand plus rockets (nevermind raids, mortars, artillery, and ground-targeted AAA) fired at Israel just last summer against however many sorties flown in breach of Lebanese airspace since 1978.  Sounds about balanced, given all those lethal sonic booms.
 
Alexis, relax.  Your forces and you may be too excitable to handle the strain.  Perhaps France should never have PUSHED so hard for a cease-fire.  Clearly, your gov't. had second thoughts the moment the U.S. trapped  France by joining the cease-fire process, which explains France's  last-second waffling on force size.  You're always welcome to leave.  Then again, you might consider staying and actually PREVENTING the re-militarization of the south as per your mandate. 
 
Finally, you're welcome to light up one those IsAF aircraft with a target-tracking radar and see what happens.  My guess is your ground station would be eating a HARM in about ONE minute.  Nominoe seems to think that you guys have Aster SAM systems there.  God only knows why?  If the POGs or Syrians have a acquisition or targeting radar of similar frequency, it may be tough for an IsAF pilot to know WHO's lighting him up.
 
Do your ferkin' jobs.  Patrol, interdict, and prevent the POGs from re-militarizing the south.  You want to help "dear Lebanon", there's your ticket.  Quit whinning about the IsAF and get about your business.  I know.  It's a forlorn hope on my part.  You'd rather dissemble about Israel than get down to the serious business of peace-keeping in southern Lebanon.  Not enough troops?  You've a mandate for 15,000.  Use it.
 
Admit it.  France is frightened to merde of POG. Y'all need to get over Beirut, 1983 and get on with the business at hand before somebody from France gets seriously hurt.  OTOH, should Israel invade, you'll finally have a chance to see whether your LeClercs are worth a damn.
 
 
 
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ambush       11/17/2006 10:09:33 PM
This is not so serious.  The US Marines and Israiles had a couple of confrontation  when the Corps was in Lebanon. Leave it to the French to get their panties in  wad about anything to do with the mitliary and "aggressive action".
 
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dogberry       11/17/2006 11:52:22 PM
A state of war has existed between Israel and Lebanon since 1948.   Did I miss the signing of a peace treaty?
 
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Apokalypse       11/18/2006 4:49:36 AM

The French are only working 9am to 5pm anyway.

The rest of the time they are relaxing on the beach and not paying attention to truck loads of rockets comming over the syrian boarder

I remember the last time I was in Beirut. The French foreign legioners doing all the job...while the US marines running scared arround often helping the Israeli soldiers massacre people.

I have much respect for the french armed forces....I have no respect for the americans.....

 
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Yimmy       11/18/2006 8:36:38 AM

A state of war has existed between Israel and Lebanon since 1948.   Did I miss the signing of a peace treaty?



Oh come one, Israel is no more in a state of war with Lebanon since 1948 than America is with North Korea since 1953.
 
And no S2, terrorists in Lebanon fireing rockets into Israel is not an act of war -by Lebanon-.
 
There are obviously terrorists in Lebanon, just as there are terrorists in Afghanistan, and there is a proper way for Israel to conduct itself to achieve their removal.  Bullying peace-keepers isn't it.
 
 
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StateMachine       11/18/2006 10:13:37 AM
Alexis, you have surmised correctly.
 
 
The Isrealis are having buyers remorse over the cease fire.
 
They think Hezbollah is rearming and they believe that the sooner they can reignite the Lebanon War the better. One thing the Isrealis fear if they wait too long is that Lebanon and/or Hezbollah will acquire SAM systems capable of neutralizing the IAF and the one advantage they enjoyed during the last war will be gone.
 
Problem : UNIFIL is in the way. Gotta move 'em out. This action will become more aggressive as weeks go by. At some point, Isreal will decide that there's no time to move UNIFIL and simply provoke a causus belli with any takers, UNIFIL or Hezbollah. And then the war is back on with UNIFIL in the worst spot.
 
 
And as you correctly pointed out, it is the most idiotic move in Isreal's history. Europe would turn overtly hostile to Isreal. Because this would mark the first time Isreal intentionally and openly mounted a planned major attack on Euro forces.
 
But Isreal faces a tough choice(if reports are true of Hezbollah rearmament with SAMs). Either risk Euro hatred and sanctions for the lengthy future or cede any military air superiority over Lebanon and thus cede any hope of Isreal ever defeating Hezbollah in the future.
 
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Pseudonym       11/18/2006 11:12:13 AM
"Oh come one, Israel is no more in a state of war with Lebanon since 1948 than America is with North Korea since 1953."

Funny I seem to forget the Rocket attacks from North Korea.
 
"And no S2, terrorists in Lebanon fireing rockets into Israel is not an act of war -by Lebanon-."

When the POG is a part of the Lebanese Gov't and the Lebanese refuse to control them, or to let anyone else, in fact they OPENLY SUPPORT THEM, Lebanon is no longer a victim, but an accessory.  This is a basic concept even you understand.
 
"There are obviously terrorists in Lebanon, just as there are terrorists in Afghanistan, and there is a proper way for Israel to conduct itself to achieve their removal.  Bullying peace-keepers isn't it."

This should be interesting.  TELL US WHAT THEY SHOULD DO TO GET THEIR SOLDIERS BACK AND STOP TERRORISTS FROM REARMING IN LEBANON.

Oh wait, you have no plan, because the "Peace-Keepers" AREN'T DOING A DAMN THING.
 
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Yimmy       11/18/2006 11:51:50 AM


This should be interesting.  TELL US WHAT THEY SHOULD DO TO GET THEIR SOLDIERS BACK AND STOP TERRORISTS FROM REARMING IN LEBANON.

Oh wait, you have no plan, because the "Peace-Keepers" AREN'T DOING A DAMN THING.

You, are acting like a small minded idiot shouting rhetoric.
 
I am not a politician, neither am I one of the peacekeepers, it is not for me to make any plans.
 
I believe we were right to invade Afghanistan and enforce regime change.  I believe this because the Taliban actively supported and trained Al Queda.  As the Taliban (the legitimate state government) refused to act against Al Queda, we were forced to remove them in order to fight Al Queda.
 
If the Lebanon state government were to repeatedly shout support for Hezbolah, and help train them, I would think it Just for Israel to invade the Lebanon and enforce regime change.  What is more, under the greater context of the "War on Terrorism", I am sure the US and UK would actively back Israel in doing such.  But the Fact is, although Hezbolah may have entities in the Lebanon government, I have seen no evidence that the Lebanon state government supports these terrorists.  What is more, they have announced intentions to dis-arm Hezbolah, and have accordingly moved they legitimate armed forces into the South of the country.  As such the Lebanon is not the enemy in the same way the Taliban were.
 
The problem is, Hezbolah enjoys a great amount of public support in the Lebanon (due to crude Israeli foreign policy), while the Lebanese military is weak (and probably owes some loyalty to Hezbolah), and so the Lebabon state government is not powerful enough to rid themselves of Hezbolah.
 
The situation is not black and white. 
 
Oh, and yes, North Korea has mounted multiple small commando raids et al into the South.

 
 
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S-2    Yimmy Reply   11/18/2006 12:21:35 PM
Yimmy,
 
You appear to have a less-than-full, and unbalanced grasp of the implications of national sovereignty as it relates to Lebanese responsibility for border control.
 
Further, you're posturing of inacceptable conduct by Israel lacks context without you offering an appropriate alternative as a legitimate recourse for an Israeli defense of its citizens and national borders.  UNIFIL has had 28 years of "interim" support to the Lebanese gov't. in re-asserting it's control over the southern shared border with Israel, abjectly failing to even convince the Lebanese Army southward to the Blue Line until late August, much less accomplishing it's mandate in that "interim" period.
 
Do not "pass go".  In fact, return to "start" and try again.  Weak in the extreme, as usual...but expected, coming from you.
 
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Pseudonym       11/18/2006 12:33:42 PM
"You, are acting like a small minded idiot shouting rhetoric."

I'm not the one attacking the VICTIMS for daring to respond to TERRORISTS and their STATE SPONSORS.

You want Lebanon to have the rights of a nation?

Then it must ACT LIKE A NATION AND TAKE CONTROL OF ITS TERRITORY.

Small minded is screaming at Israel with no alternative for them to do.

When the next round starts and the UN is ONCE AGAIN in the line of fire, I want you to remember why.

As much as you try to spin it, you know why, and it isn't anything Israel is doing, it is simply that Israel EXISTS.

 
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