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Subject: Country with best conventional armed forces (army, air force, navy)
dba    11/3/2006 3:46:57 PM
Which country would be ranked #1 in an all-out conventional war involvng all armed forces like WW2? Obviously I would exclude US & Russia in this ranking. And no nukes. And I would say size matters also. So even if UK army was really good its small size would make it inferior to say China. Thanks.
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french stratege       11/12/2006 8:00:00 PM
A very interesting document from US DOD underlying the importance of civilian sealift to transport heavy forces:
Page 24:


Key to the buildup and sustainment of forces was the workhorse of the

strategic mobility triad sealift. Sealift in Operations DESERT SHIELD and

DESERT STORM was composed of ships under MSC operational control as

well as domestic and foreign ships under charter to MSC. The size and

swiftness of the buildup required the United States to use almost every

element of its sealift capability. Almost all Navy sealift elements were

involved in the operation and they were supplemented by large numbers of

chartered domestic and foreign ships. During the entire operation, 385 ships

delivered unit equipment, related support, and petroleum products.

The sealift logistics deployment and sustainment effort took place in two

phases. The first sealift phase extended from August to November [1990]

and was designed to deploy and sustain forces to deter further Iraqi

aggression. During that period, sealift moved the equipment of more than

four Army divisions along with sustainment for the initial defensive support

requirements. By September, more than 100 of TRANSCOM’s MSCcontrolled

ships had delivered the equipment and sustainment for the

100,000 US military personnel who had deployed to the theater. When the

first sealift phase ended, more than 180 ships were assigned or under charter

to MSC and nearly 3.5 million tons of fuel and 1.2 million tons of cargo had

been delivered.

The second phase began in December and extended until the end of the

conflict. By 15 January [1991], the total number of US forces deployed in

the theater had more than doubled. From the beginning, while deploying a

unit, ships were also loaded with sustainment supplies required by the forces

in theater. By March, an average of 4,200 tons of cargo arrived in theater

daily. The average one-way voyage for the Operations DESERT SHIELD

and DESERT STORM sealift covered nearly 8,700 miles.

SOURCE: DOD Final Report to Congress

Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, April 1992

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Herald1234    Some people should read what they cite as evidence.   11/12/2006 8:18:25 PM
[quoting from the above RAND report} 

Policies for Enhancing the RRF’s Operational Readiness
To increase RRF combat capability and cope with the requirements of future high-
tech regional warfare, the PLA has operationalized policies to enhance RRF’s
operational readiness. These measures include:
Identifying possible targets and intensively assessing conditions of the war zone
Applying imported technology to store, assess, and revise every operational plan
and implementing these plans in training and exercises so as to adjust combat
capability in different war scenarios;
Deploying motorized vehicles, electronic warfare equipment, and modernized
logistic support to RRF units to enhance force mobility, long-range deployment,
electronic countermeasure and electronic counter-countermeasure capabilities;
Reducing the timeframe for transforming levels of operational readiness, such
as transforming operational readiness from level 4 to level 1 in a time period not
exceeding three days
I wish that some people would look at their evidence?
I read that piece of garbage which was a RAND analysis about China's RRF.
I came aweay with some major pieces of information.
1. That initially China had to designate an infantry division in each military district as a rapid reaction force. Why do that if they have the ability to move forces across across country at will?
2. That the Chinese have imported(stolen) US gear to command various elements of their so called RRF 
3. That what the Chinese call RRF we would call the reconnaissance element of our own conventionnal formations.
A better report indicates to me that China has a long way to go to even equal Italy in expeditionary warfare much less play with the big boys.
Operation Telic proves something else;
Hired and moved.  The british can move as described when they need to move.
I think that puts the lie that I saw posted above about Britain's capabilities to rest.
Now I read with interest what other posters have said on this subject. I will add this. The Russians who have exercised with a certian unnamed nation in joint exercises as recently as 2005 were
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french stratege       11/12/2006 8:24:30 PM
According to French senate report no problem to get french civilian shipping and to get sufficient capacities:
les dispositifs de réquisition permettaient au ministère de la défense d'affréter des moyens de transport civils privés pour les besoins du transport de troupes lors des opérations extérieures. La défense n'est donc pas confrontée à un problème de capacité pour ce type d'actions
I heard what we have 50 ship available for short notice (in weeks) including 20 ferries already specified and modified to handle heavy armor (reinforced deck and other features)..
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BRoger       11/13/2006 9:10:13 AM

UK army radio 'not ready for war time' says infantry chief


FS - The article you referenced is dated January 2005 - do you think its possible that nearly two years later the situation might just be a little different?
Why bother quoting out of date information? It makes detracts from your own credibility.....
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kane       11/13/2006 10:49:48 AM
I'm suprised no one mentioned Turkey

My list would be like this
5.South Korea
(I don't know much about NK)
French Stratege said France has 35 000 troops abroad
So what?What does that prove?

I wonder why do guys do not mention Turkey?You even wrote about Italy/Spain...

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french stratege       11/13/2006 4:04:21 PM
FS - The article you referenced is dated January 2005 - do you think its possible that nearly two years later the situation might just be a little different?
Why bother quoting out of date information? It makes detracts from your own credibility.....
Of course it is different.But you can not move to full digitalization when you started less than two year ago to deploy your first equipement (not debugged yet!)  troop and officers are not yet fully trained, no experience gained, no new tactics fully implemented,  no full deploiement yet etc...
I can not see UK to be ready to deploy a digitalized great unit (division, brigades) while US and France can already.And we are alone in this field even UK , Israel, germany  and Sweden are following.
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french stratege       11/13/2006 6:33:00 PM
A guy has computed raduius of action of rafale in hi lo hi without air refueling from our world air base .I can not resist to post it here.Our course with air refueling you can double each spot in radius.
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Herald1234    You have an excellent point, FS. , but I have a better one.    11/13/2006 8:20:12 PM
Check the China board topic-especially about SEAPOWER;
Best wishes, FS. Succès vers la France!
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Godofgamblers       11/13/2006 8:43:05 PM
If you're interested, H, this is a good listing of French airbases and deployment :
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Herald1234    GoG   11/13/2006 9:42:16 PM
Merci beaucoup.
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