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Subject: Has the top two most powerful countries militarily ever been such close allies as they are now?
ProDemocracy    8/24/2006 11:20:32 AM
It seems that the second ranked power in the world is always aligned against the first. First ranked Britain always faced France in the 1700's and 1800's. Although briefly allied during the Crimean War, Britain and France were for the most part rivals. In the 1900's, Britain faced Germany. During 1914, Britain and Germany were the two most powerful countries in the world and on opposite sides. In 1941, Russia and Germany were the two most powerful - and went to war. By 1945 after the US had increased the military, it was the US and Russia. And once it became the US and Russia, the cold war began. Until now, has there ever been a time in history when the worlds two most powerful nations were as close allies as the US and UK are currently? It would seem that there is nothing those two countries could not accomplish together - not that they don't need others. But in the face of wide UN opposition and in the face of opposition from other powers - namely Russia and China, the US and UK went ahead in Iraq. And noone tried to stop them...more than likely because they couldn't.
 
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olive greens    Have the top two most powerful countries militarily ever been such close allies as they are now?   8/24/2006 11:44:18 AM
UK is the second-most powerful country militarily? Well, if you can live with one illusion you can live with three more: First ranked Britain always faced France in the 1700's and 1800's. ... In 1941, Russia and Germany were the two most powerful ... And noone tried to stop them...more than likely because they couldn't.
 
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ProDemocracy    Illusions - Olive Greens   8/24/2006 1:29:34 PM
"UK is the second-most powerful country militarily? Well, if you can live with one illusion you can live with three more:" ---One of many sources which back up my post: http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp "First ranked Britain always faced France in the 1700's and 1800's." ---That's a given - Britain won the French-Indian war, beat Napoleon multiple times and it was their support that kept the anti-Napoleon alliance together. "In 1941, Russia and Germany were the two most powerful" ---So if not Russia and Germany, who would you say? Russia had just beat Japan in 1939 in some on the ground skirmishes. "And noone tried to stop them...more than likely because they couldn't. " ---Who could have realistically stopped the US/UK invasion of Iraq? Sounds like you are under some illusions yourself - but the best thing you could do to destroy any illusions I may be under is to prove me wrong. Saying I am wrong is easy - proving it something else entirely.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Illusions - Olive Greens-Correction   8/24/2006 1:32:18 PM
The link I provided for the UK being second most powerful - actually supports that Russia is the most powerful with the UK being #2 in Europe. I do not believe that to be true and can offer sources...but first, let's see what evidence you can provide to the contrary as the fact that the UK is #2 has been debated on here extensively, and it's pretty much a given.
 
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joe6pack    RE:Illusions - Olive Greens   8/24/2006 1:36:42 PM
Pro D, I'm not sure I'd use the SP chart to back up that argument. It appears to be, to put it politely, just a wee bit dubious.
 
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neofire1000    RE:Illusions - Olive Greens-Correction   8/24/2006 1:36:56 PM
Have to agree with ProDemocracy here, the evidence does stack up if you search hard enough.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Illusions - Olive Greens - Joe6   8/24/2006 1:41:22 PM
"Pro D, I'm not sure I'd use the SP chart to back up that argument. It appears to be, to put it politely, just a wee bit dubious. " Joe, Thanks for being polite about it :) - but you are right, the strategy page charts might not be the most credible source. And Neo is right too, you have to search hard.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Illusions - Olive Greens - Joe6   8/24/2006 1:52:04 PM
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200601/200601060016.html China Ranks Korea as Ninth ‘Most Powerful Nation’ Korea has been ranked the ninth most powerful nation by the Chinese government's top think tank, the Academy of Social Sciences. The U.S. was predictably in the top spot. China came sixth, one level above Japan. The CASS released a report on Thursday which ranked countries in nine areas -- GDP, military power, diplomacy, capital strength, technological power, natural resources, human resources, government coordination and control capability, information and communication -- with the average in each field determining a country's overall rank. Among the top 10, the U.S. came first by a long chalk with a composite national power index of 90.69, followed by the U.K. with 65.04, Russia with 63.03, France with 62, Germany with 61.93, China with 59.10, Japan with 57.84, Canada with 57.09, Korea with 53.2 and India with 50.43. Korea ranked third in information and communication with a score of 80.88, following the U.S. and Japan, and in technological power, Korea was ahead of Canada, Russia, China and India. But in terms of natural resources, capital strength and diplomacy, Korea did no better than ninth and 10th.
 
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JIMF    RE:Illusions - ProD   8/24/2006 2:27:39 PM
Minor quibble, a bit more than skirmishes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_Border_War_(1939)
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Illusions - ProD   8/24/2006 2:31:05 PM
Without reading the article, you are right, "skirmish" was a bit of an understatement considering Japan lost close to if not a whole division. My intention in downplaying it was to - while still making the point that Russia bested Japan in 1939 - avoid someone coming back to say "just because Russia won a small battle with Japan doesnt make her #2 in 1941". I should have found a better way to clarify.
 
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olive greens    RE:Illusions - ProDem   8/24/2006 5:03:01 PM
---One of many sources which back up my post: http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp You contradict yourself here. Anyway, I did read you later correction so I will just address that: Russia has about 10 times as many nuclear weapons as UK... in absolute power terms that settles the matter right there. "First ranked Britain always faced France in the 1700's and 1800's." ---That's a given - Britain won the French-Indian war, beat Napoleon multiple times and it was their support that kept the anti-Napoleon alliance together. My objection was to you portraying France as the "second-most" powerful nation of the said period. Smacks of Euro-centricity. What about Russia, or the bloody Manchus in 18th C? Or emerging Germany (basically Prussia) in 19th C? "In 1941, Russia and Germany were the two most powerful" ---So if not Russia and Germany, who would you say? Russia had just beat Japan in 1939 in some on the ground skirmishes. What about the British? "And noone tried to stop them...more than likely because they couldn't. " ---Who could have realistically stopped the US/UK invasion of Iraq? There is a difference between couldn't and wouldn't. PS: I cant believe I am being dragged into this. Is this some kind of inside joke? If so, can I back out without further embrassment?
 
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