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Subject: How Evil is Islam? - Islamophobes, this one's for You.
bigfella    4/19/2006 8:56:59 AM
I have been having a lot of fun reading some of the ramblings of our collection of Islamophobes here on SP. Sadly I didn't save the comments, but they generally imply (or state) 'only under Islam' do X bad things happen. Lots of trashing of the Koran, Mohammed etc. I think my favourite one was the suggestion that somehow Islam was to blame for the Sicilian Mafia (that one should get a prize). Of course, none of this is new or even surprising. The enemy is always the most evil thing ever, and his means the most evil means ever used. The 'dreaded Hun' raped Belgian nuns in WW1, Communists ate babies (the Birchers were still pushing this one in the 70s). If you need further evidence, do a tour of the 'war crimes museum' in Ho Chi Minh City some time. Those nasty imperialists & their puppets! So, I've decided to give you all a chance to prove to me just how nasty the baddies are, but there are some rules: *Don't bother quoting the Koran, the Prophet or any Hadith at me. Not only do most religions contain nasty quotes, but until we get some Koranic scholars on SP the Bible Brigade will always have an unfair advantage when it comes to 'contextualizing' the nasty bits. *Don't bother quoting your favourite nasty Imam or lunatic muslim newspaper. Words are not the issue here. Reagan didn't bomb Russia, Bus Snr. did bring in new taxes & Clinton did have sexual relations with Lewinsky. Actions are what interests me here. *No blustering about methods. Some people can apparently find a moral difference between killing civilians with a suicide bomb & precision ordinance, napalm or a Kalashnikov. I can't, so don't waste my time trying to tell me how much worse one is ove the other. Further, as horrific as suicide bombings (or car bombings, or any other such nasties) are, a few dozen dead in Baghdad or Tel Aviv are pretty small bikkies in the death stakes. This is going to be a simple body count comparison. I want your list or biggest & nastiest Muslim wars & killing sprees. We can even have categories of you like. We can have costliest wars where Muslims were clearly the aggressor and largest acts of mass murder by Muslims. If, as so many of you insist, Islam is so evil, violent & backwards, then the past 1400 years should yield a veritable treasure trove of mass murders & body counts, You have your mission, I await your findings.
 
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FJV    You've gotta be kidding me   10/23/2008 12:44:02 PM
It all depends on which version of Islam we're talking about as far as I'm concerned.
 
As for this thread:
"Don't bother quoting the Koran, the Prophet or any Hadith at me"
 
Talking about a religion without talking about it's main religious text on which the religion is based?
 
That's like trying to talk in depth about Christianity without mentioning the Bible, talking in depth about Communism without mentioning Das Kapital, talking in depth about the US constitution without mentioning what is written therein. In my opinion you've basically wrecked any sensible discussion right there.
 
"Don't bother quoting your favourite nasty Imam or lunatic muslim newspaper."

So now we're talking about a religion, but we aren't to bring into the discussion what the religion's followers actually say?
 
Sure let's discuss Christianity without having any regard as to what Christians themselves have to say about their religion. Or Communism without considering what Communist themselves say about their religion. Or talk about the US constitution without considering what the US citizens themselves have to say about it.
 
No blustering about methods. Some people can apparently find a moral difference between killing civilians with a suicide bomb & precision ordinance, napalm or a Kalashnikov.  
 
Oh and I guess no blustering about the fact that such methods are used when there is no absolutely need for. Let's say you already have the guy that was there to help you tied up it's only normal to cut off his head with a blunt knife. Obviously there is absolutly no moral difference between that and shooting a bullet through the head of a person shooting a you with a kalashnikov.
 
To summarize:
We are supposed to sensibly discuss Islam without mentioning any of the books and rules it's founded upon, without considering how Muslims themselves consider Islam and without considering what Muslims actually do.
 
Oh well the calligraphy is nice, but I cannot tell you why this is, because it involves certain unmentionable things....
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Shooter2K    idiotic ignoramious's who post stupid questions like this?   10/23/2008 4:36:09 PM
If you are so devoid of historicle knowledge as to be ingorant of Islams realitive standings in the Murder total race, I can only give you a small hint; Its after Hitler but ahead of Poll Pot!
 
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kane       10/29/2008 8:40:03 AM
good post bigfella....This is one of the most rational posts about Islam on these forums ever.
 
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kane       10/30/2008 4:00:23 PM

It all depends on which version of Islam we're talking about as far as I'm concerned.

 

As for this thread:

"Don't bother quoting the Koran, the Prophet or any Hadith at me"

 

Talking about a religion without talking about it's main religious text on which the religion is based?

 

That's like trying to talk in depth about Christianity without mentioning the Bible, talking in depth about Communism without mentioning Das Kapital, talking in depth about the US constitution without mentioning what is written therein. In my opinion you've basically wrecked any sensible discussion right there.


 

"Don't bother quoting your favourite nasty Imam or lunatic muslim newspaper."



So now we're talking about a religion, but we aren't to bring into the discussion what the religion's followers actually say?

 

Sure let's discuss Christianity without having any regard as to what Christians themselves have to say about their religion. Or Communism without considering what Communist themselves say about their religion. Or talk about the US constitution without considering what the US citizens themselves have to say about it.


 



No blustering about methods. Some people can
apparently find a moral difference between killing civilians with a
suicide bomb & precision ordinance, napalm or a Kalashnikov.  



 

Oh and I guess no blustering about the fact that such methods are used when there is no absolutely need for. Let's say you already have the guy that was there to help you tied up it's only normal to cut off his head with a blunt knife. Obviously there is absolutly no moral difference between that and shooting a bullet through the head of a person shooting a you with a kalashnikov.


 

To summarize:


We are supposed to sensibly discuss Islam without mentioning any of the books and rules it's founded upon, without considering how Muslims themselves consider Islam and without considering what Muslims actually do.

 

Oh well the calligraphy is nice, but I cannot tell you why this is, because it involves certain unmentionable things....


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islamic leaders let's say have commented on different hadiths differently...not to mention the Arabian langauge is a tough one and has many meanings in one word. Like by saying beat the women it might mean many many things varying from
 
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Beazz       10/30/2008 8:51:38 PM




It all depends on which version of Islam we're talking about as far as I'm concerned.



 



As for this thread:



"Don't bother quoting the Koran, the Prophet or any Hadith at me"



 



Talking about a religion without talking about it's main religious text on which the religion is based?



 



That's like trying to talk in depth about Christianity without mentioning the Bible, talking in depth about Communism without mentioning Das Kapital, talking in depth about the US constitution without mentioning what is written therein. In my opinion you've basically wrecked any sensible discussion right there.






 



"Don't bother quoting your favourite nasty Imam or lunatic muslim newspaper."









So now we're talking about a religion, but we aren't to bring into the discussion what the religion's followers actually say?



 



Sure let's discuss Christianity without having any regard as to what Christians themselves have to say about their religion. Or Communism without considering what Communist themselves say about their religion. Or talk about the US constitution without considering what the US citizens themselves have to say about it.






 









No blustering about methods. Some people can


apparently find a moral difference between killing civilians with a


suicide bomb & precision ordinance, napalm or a Kalashnikov.  









 



Oh and I guess no blustering about the fact that such methods are used when there is no absolutely need for. Let's say you already have the guy that was there to help you tied up it's only normal to cut off his head with a blunt knife. Obviously there is absolutly no moral difference between that and shooting a bullet through the head of a person shooting a you with a kalashnikov.






 



To summarize:






We are supposed to sensibly discuss Islam without mentioning any of the books and rules it's founded upon, without considering how Muslims themselves consider Islam and without considering what Muslims actually do. Quote    Reply

kane       10/31/2008 6:26:47 AM
yeah when it comes to non-believers things change...none of my Muslim friends kill me because I'm not a believer though.
As far as I know same things are in Christianity too....killing infidels?
(ps: Christians and Jews are not infidels in Islam since they're also known as followers of Allah(god) from a different way)
 
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Beazz       10/31/2008 11:55:29 AM

yeah when it comes to non-believers things change...none of my Muslim friends kill me because I'm not a believer though.

As far as I know same things are in Christianity too....killing infidels?

(ps: Christians and Jews are not infidels in Islam since they're also known as followers of Allah(god) from a different way)





Yea none of mine try to kill me either. Thats not the point. Most Muslems, like most Christians are NOT religious and simply do NOT know all that is written in their respective holy books. That does not however change the fact that it IS written in the Koran to kill the infadels.
There is no such scripture in the Bible anywhere where Christians are commanded to kill non Christians. No where! Matter of fact it is exactly the opposite. Christians are commanded to love them and pray for them.  Jews and Christians are most definitely infadels under Islam. I'd be happy for you to show me where this is not so. For that matter, do you even know why it is acceptable for Sunni Muslem to kill Shia Muslem?? It's because neither considers the other a true Muslem and therefore it makes it acceptable to kill them because they are INFADELS!
 
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FJV    actually Kane   10/31/2008 3:05:36 PM
Your reply breaks several of Bigfella's constraints.
 
As for Islam, I ride to work on public transport every day with Muslims, nothing ever happens. "shrug" Also I know well what kind of material is available on the internet to create mayhem and considering that it is suprising that so little stuff happens.
 
There are a few things that the Muslims do that have to change on which I cannot compromise.
- Not marrying and having children with your own family members. (25% of Turks and 20% of Morrocans marry and have children
  with their own niece compared to 0.1% of Dutch) This inbreading give a genetic disadvantage to these minorities that no law or
  measure can fix. This causes the children to be:
     - Less healthy on average.
     - Less intelligent on average.
     - Have less healthy children themselves than the average.
 
  Even if Dutch society becomes completely fair and honest, this will hugely stack the deck against them.
 
- Much better treatment of women. I see in this in the public transport I take to work. Early in the morning there are almost no
  Muslim women on the public transport. This means that they are not going to work/schook and that oppertunities are denied to
  them
 
- Much better treatment of gays. Leave them alone! What is this Muslim obsession with them? This behavior makes one think stuff.


 
 
 
 
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kane       11/1/2008 8:28:55 PM




yeah when it comes to non-believers things change...none of my Muslim friends kill me because I'm not a believer though.



As far as I know same things are in Christianity too....killing infidels?



(ps: Christians and Jews are not infidels in Islam since they're also known as followers of Allah(god) from a different way)













Yea none of mine try to kill me either. Thats not the point. Most Muslems, like most Christians are NOT religious and simply do NOT know all that is written in their respective holy books. That does not however change the fact that it IS written in the Koran to kill the infadels.


There is no such scripture in the Bible anywhere where Christians are commanded to kill non Christians. No where! Matter of fact it is exactly the opposite. Christians are commanded to love them and pray for them.  Jews and Christians are most definitely infadels under Islam. I'd be happy for you to show me where this is not so. For that matter, do you even know why it is acceptable for Sunni Muslem to kill Shia Muslem?? It's because neither considers the other a true Muslem and therefore it makes it acceptable to kill them because they are INFADELS!



whatever you saw in the internet is wrong...and many Christian I know told me that in Bible it actually says kill infidels. I thought what Crusaders(especially the Teutonic order) did pretty much.

According to holy book Christians and Jews are not infidels...I doN't care what Muslims think but thats the way it is. A pagan would be considered an infidel. The thing is, Mohammad himself didN't execute pagans but tried to convert thm by peace. Also in Islam there is no forced conversion...the "kill infidel issue" is pretty disputed...however I've never seen teachers teaching anything about killing infidels....what they said was always killing is one of the greatests sins.
Your thoughts are pretty similar to those who read Islam on the internet which are generally not healthy sources for this.
 
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kane       11/1/2008 8:32:52 PM

Your reply breaks several of Bigfella's constraints.

 

As for Islam, I ride to work on public transport every day with Muslims, nothing ever happens. "shrug" Also I know well what kind of material is available on the internet to create mayhem and considering that it is suprising that so little stuff happens.

 

There are a few things that the Muslims do that have to change on which I cannot compromise.

- Not marrying and having children with your own family members. (25% of Turks and 20% of Morrocans marry and have children

  with their own niece compared to 0.1% of Dutch) This inbreading give a genetic disadvantage to these minorities that no law or

  measure can fix. This causes the children to be:


     - Less healthy on average.


     - Less intelligent on average.


     - Have less healthy children themselves than the average.


 


  Even if Dutch society becomes completely fair and honest, this will hugely stack the deck against them.


 

- Much better treatment of women. I see in this in the public transport I take to work. Early in the morning there are almost no

  Muslim women on the public transport. This means that they are not going to work/schook and that oppertunities are denied to

  them


 

- Much better treatment of gays. Leave them alone! What is this Muslim obsession with them? This behavior makes one think stuff.






 

 

 

I agree with your points...it's generally like that in very conservative Muslim societies....marrying someone from family is ridicoulus but they do it. It's more related to education than being a Muslim. Most of the Muslims are not as well educated as westerners as we all know...Muslims created way too many dogmas that should be broken. Lucky me, we had a guy like Atatürk who made what Europeans did in centuries in 10 years....though it still couldN't change some core things.
There are seriously a lot of errors caused because of beliefs, especially Islam...but thats not because of Islam, that is because of the way Muslims chose. Europeans chose the right way....we all know they were pretty worse than Muslim years ago.

 
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