>> So we've massacred millions of hindus have we? << First off I think the original poster you refer to is WAY OFF on his numbers... but it still amounts to millions. I also believe he was referring to genocide in pre-Independence East Pakistan rather than Bangladesh per se. >> How come India has never done anything about this, i'd have thought they'd wipe our little country of the face of the planet. << Instead they put your country onto the face of the planet, didnt they? >> What country would sit by and watch millions of their own were being massacred? << Never under-estimate the apathy and indifference of Indian government ;-)

Okie as some of the posters here have been saying "The majority of the Muslim population is peaceful and it is just the handful of crackpots doing the damage" Unfortunately the majority of the Muslim population instead of trying to clear these few bad apples are sitting back and enjoying the show. This is what the rest of the world sees the majority as :"people happily relaxing and enjoying the show with a few words on how good n peaceful Islam actually is" but they do nothing about the malaise,not even criticise them. This I think is as bad as being one of those Radical goons,since watching a crime happen and doing nothing about it is as bad as commiting the crime itself and as punishable as the criminal offence. It is just not the few but the whole population who have to be held responsible.

"How big are these "Other parts", and in these other parts, who owns the slaves? Most of East Africa, from the South African border north, is heavily Muslim and has been so for centuries. Ethiopia seems to be the only exception, and it has always been independent." Try sub-Saharan West Africa: Gold Coast, Ivory Casot, Sierra Leone etc. There is also slavery in tribal societies in central Africa. In the case of the cocoa trade it is on a massive, industrial scale. Plantations of slave workers who attempt to escape at risk of mutilation or deat, all to bring us cheap chocolate. Without western money it would most likely collapse (the industry anyway). "Just out of curiosity, since you quoted the 17th Century Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, can you provide a population count of Christians in Antioch in the 17th C and a population count today? I think that you will not like the result." I'll bet there are more native-born christians in Antioch than native-born Jews or Muslims in Spain or Portugal. "Try again. How many miles between Germany, France (clearly Europe), where the buying and selling of humans was essentially a dead issue within a few hundred years of the Fall of Rome, and Constantinople (where, literally, the eastern edges of the city are the edges of the European continent)? A link to the treaty you mention would be useful, as the Muslims took a nice slice of the eastern provinces of the Byzantine Empire very early on." Nice try, but no banana. Byzantuim saw itself (with some justification) as the inheretor of the Roman Empire (indeed, they referred to themselves as the Roman, not Byzantine Empire). Constantinople may indeed have been on the edge of Europe, but for a long time it was at the centre of the Empire, which ruled the Balkans & parts of Italy in addition to its Asian & African territories. The Byzantines were not especially discrimainate about who they enslaved. One emperor, who decided to settle the Royal court in Sicily went about enslaving large numbers of locals. The treaty I referred to was made by one of the early Islamic rulers of Damascus, while Byzantuim still ruled most of what it had when Islam began. I read about it in John Julius Norwich's 3 part history of Byzantium (sorry. I prefer books when I can use them, the web is not reliable). Now that you mention the Polio scare I do recall it. I also recall that they read about the supposed danger of the vaccine on the net, from a site set up by anti-vaccination nuts in the West. Reminds me of riots in Latin America where people believed travelling Americans were there to steal their children to harvest for organs. Sorry if the reference didn't twig at first, I tend to focus on important stuff like AIDS & Malaria when it comes to viruses. Most other stuff is pretty small stuff by comparison. I'll read your links when I get time & get back to you.

"Your assertion that intent makes no difference as a measure of the actions is childish and ridiculous." Fair enough Jungle. Got caught up in making debating points. What I should have said is that it doesn't always matter. Intent is incredibly messy because it is usually subjective. Indeed, you can't always be sure that what a person says about their intent is the actual reason why they are doing something. An Israeli, for instance, might say that a suicide bomber intends to kill civillians, making them evil. A Palestinian may retort that the intent is Palestinian independence, the method is killing civilians via suicide bombing. Does this make the suicide bomber more evil than an Israeli pilot who kills civilians while dropping abomb on or near militants, or an artillery commander who does the same when shelling a settlement in response to a rocket attack? (not picking on Irael here, just a well known example). This is what I mean. People tend to judge intent by what they think of the perpetrator, that is why I tend to ignore it in circumstances such as this. It allows someone to say 'X is more evil than Y because the meant this', tying the whole thread down in a morass of interpretation that is impossible to resolve.

"Following this, it is obvious that the rise of djihadism is tied to the political decline in the AraboMuslim civilization, and to the western (christian) predominance." I think you have part of it there. I also think that the rise of fundamentalism in Islam is part of a more general trend (Christianity & Hinduism are dealing with it too). I'll get onto details later, it is big & complex & if I start on it now I'll take ages. Get back to it later...

"And talking about evidence???do u expect me to submitt videos and snaps of ppl getting killed???" No, but witness statements are usually a good start. Location of mass graves. Stuff like that. Remember, you were talking about 15 million people here. To give a comparative example, the mass murders & deaths by famine that took place in Communist China between 1949 & 1976 were well reported & recorded despite an even more carefully controlled media than Bangladesh. A few things that I do know about Bangladesh: The population in 1947 was nowhere near 100 million. Indeed, I'd be very surprised if the whole of Pakistan had that population. In the late 60s the population of Pakistan (both bits) was given as 110-120 million. Figures I have from the early 70s suggest a combined population of 140 million (Bangla about 74 mill). Of this, the non-muslim pop. was set at about 20% (under 15 million people). During the upheavals of 1969-71 something like 9 million people fled Bangladesh. I don't know how many were muslim & how many Hindu/Buddhist, though it wouldn't surprise me if many were Hindu. Figures on deaths for the civil war in Pakistan range from 1-3 million. I have never seen a religious breakdown. it is possible that 2.5 million were Hindu, though it would surprise me, given the reasons for the war. Current figures give the non-Muslim population of Bangladesh at over 13%, which would be almost 20 million in a population of 150 mill. This may not be a rise commensurtate with the rate of population growth, but it is a significant rise, especially if many did die & flee in 1970-71. If you have some decent evidence for you 15 million claim by all means present it.

Olive Greens, I suspect that you and I are on the same page on a lot more issues than you might think. I was especially impressed with the way you dealth with AussieGunner on another thread. As someone from a more recently colonised society you made plain the bull self-justifications that many westerners use when dealing with their recent past. "bigfella, I know you are trying to cheer for the underdog. Its an admirable gesture. But I think you mistake a wolf for a dog." While I do give underdogs a hearty cheer, I do also take care to check for overly large teeth & grey fur. I have no time for people who arm themselves & saet out on murder sprees for race, religion, politics or pretty much any other reason. I have an intense dislike of religious fundamentalism because its supporters are all mini-dictators to beging with. The only difference is how far over the line they have stepped so far. My issue here is the demonization of a whole faith & it history because of current events. What I currently see in the Islamic world is a push for great, perhaps revolutionary change from many of its citizens. Unfortunately the last generation of governments in the Islamic world (for most the first generation after independence) tended to be corrupt & violent secular regimes. it comes as no great surprise, then, that strains of Islam promising revolutionary change have gained popularity in the way that revolutionary communism once did. If the West, led by America, makes the mistake of turning a fight against a few violent lunatics into a fight agains the Muslim world, not only will Osama Bin Laden have his wish, but the world will descend into chaos for a generation or more. I believe that many of the desires of those in the muslim world are legitimate, just as many of those who supported communism had legitimate grievances. That they express themselves in ways we find offensive is a dangerous distraction, but a distraction nonetheless. What the West must do is find a way to separate that mass from the more violent minority. This will untimately have to be done within each society, but we must find a way to help. Unfortunately this is slow, complex & often a '2 steps forward, one back' process. The use of force looks nice & simple by comparison, but ultimately I believe it is more dangerous.

"(except for the Canadians who have a remarable ability not to p*ss anyone off, well except the Americans who were planning to use poison gas [WMD] on them in the 30s)." Yes it must be nice to be able to hide behind the USA's protection while at the same time talking down about them. It's funny Mustang, but I see your colors showing now, and suddenly alot of what you said in that F-22 thread suddenly makes sense.

He's an Aussie, pseudo. I'm sure he apprecates the value of our long friendship & America's protection. No doubt his appreciation is fuelled by memories of Americans fighting bravely by our side as we fought the germans & Turks in 1914, 15 & 16. He no no doubt appreciates the help of our brave American allies as we attempted to turn back the german tide in Africa & Greece in 1940 & 41. Perhaps he recalls the GIs who humped it through the jungles of Sth East Asia figting communists during the late 1940s & 1950s. Now, unless you have something to contribute to this thread, go back to where you came from & leave us to get on with grown up stuff.

"An Israeli, for instance, might say that a suicide bomber intends to kill civillians, making them evil. A Palestinian may retort that the intent is Palestinian independence, the method is killing civilians via suicide bombing. Does this make the suicide bomber more evil than an Israeli pilot who kills civilians while dropping abomb on or near militants, or an artillery commander who does the same when shelling a settlement in response to a rocket attack? (not picking on Irael here, just a well known example)." -- BF ---- Yes, infinitely so. No comparison. Displacedjim