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Subject: why bayonets?
jastayme3    2/16/2006 3:52:26 PM
I probably brought up this topic before but why are bayonets issued? It is true that one might have an occasional hand to hand fight. However the chances are to remote as to justify issueing weapons specifically for them. In fact I believe that is acknowledged tacitly-some bayonets have a saw edge close to the hilt on one side I believe-to use as wire cutters. Why not go the hole route and assume the main purpose will be various and sundry types of work and hand-to-hand will be a bonus? A machete or a Gurkha knife* is useful for other things besides cutting people. Or simply a hunting knife. The only advantage of a bayonet is it's reach, which is irrelevant as reach is only an advantage in a fight between densely packed masses, and most modern hand-to-hand fights are likely to be suprise meetings by a few contestants(I.E scurrying down an ally and accidently bumping into a foe)in which there will be room to manuever around a long weapon and anywy no time to fix bayonets. Of course a hunting knife fascined to the end of a rifle is for a practical purposes a bayonet-and maybe the clasp adds so little to weight as to render my question academic. Still why not assume that they will mostly use it for cutting up, say, a pig they bought/stole from the peasants, and only rarely use it to fight with? Bayonets have a fine tradition and make a great show, but with know cavalry charges and firepower to heavy to make fighting in thick formation practical, they are obsolete. As a side note, why do they use assault rifles and modern bayonets on parade. Modern small arms, except for revolvers, and sporting weapons are intensely ugly. Why not use muskets and 18th century bayonets on parade? They make a fine show. *as I understand it's just a legend that they have to draw blood every time(they cut their fingers just to make themselves look scarier) and they use it for other purposes-killing sacrificial animals on Hindu feast days, but also meat-cutting, brush cutting, gathering fireplace tinder, what not).
 
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ambush    RE:Blunt bayonets-Yimmy   2/17/2006 9:54:22 PM
Iremeber seeing that knife in the 80s. I think it was being marketed as a British Airborne knife. It looked like a good knife for the jungle or artic though a bit heavy.
 
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S.C.P    RE:why bayonets?   2/18/2006 11:47:57 AM
1. If you run out of ammo 2. To Kill silently 3. One might prefer to use a bayonet up close, to preserve amunition. The last time the Brits put the Bayonet to use was in Iraq 2004, a Scottish regiment, under attack and repulsing the enemy. The patrol became low on ammo so a bayonet charge was orderd to finish the Iraqis off. Finish them off they did with just one wounded Scott. Before that in the Falklands the British used the baynet in most battles. When you jump into a trench you are probably right in the face of the enemy. Its probably just as quick to stab them with a bayonet anyway.
 
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shek    Why part of the combat load?   2/18/2006 12:03:27 PM
I know these were always mentioned, but I had my company carry bayonets for a few reasons. 1. I believed that it instilled a more serious warrior attitude given the history and tradition of the bayonet. 2. It probably dissuaded some of the guys from going out and buying their own knives, which would then make them more likely to play with them and inflict a stupid injury - those who have been on long deployments, training or real world know what I'm talking about here - if a soldier is bored and has a knife, there is some probability that while sharpening it or throwing it or whatever, it will end up in someone's flesh. 3. The biggest reason was because of its less than lethal effects. In any crowd situation, threatening to use deadly force is a two edged sword - it may get their attention, but if you're really not willing to use deadly force and your bluff gets called, the potential for the situation to escalate out of control is then much greater. On the other hand, fixing bayonets sends a clear message that is easily understood in any language, it will create some space between the crowd and soldiers since people tend to avoid sharp objects, any injuries inflicted by a surging crowd seems less over the top ("idiots ran into sharp bayonets!" as opposed to "I was scared and so I shot the unarmed protestor"), it makes it more difficult for someone to effectively grab at someone's weapon, and it avoids being put into a calling your bluff situation where the choices are don't use deadly force or use deadly force without in between options. Now, some less than lethal equipment has been issued to forces in Iraq that has eliminated this dichotomy, but it's not practical to always hump around more bulky equipment (in comparison to a bayonet) all the time.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:American bayonets   2/18/2006 12:46:18 PM
>>Anyone here fired with a bayonet on, operationally or not? I've heard they hurt your accuracy, not just because of the balance being different, but because the escaping gases from the muzzle can't escape the same. I've got little enough accuracy as it is so I'd better keep mine off!!<< I own a Mosin-Nagant 91/30, and have fired it with its bayonet. As I understand it, the Russian regulations were that the bayonet was to be fixed upon the rifle at all times while in the combat zone, so it was meant to be fired with the bayonet on. FWIW, I noticed very little difference in my accuracy (piss-poor - ;-)) with or without the bayonet. Actually, when shooting off-hand, I believe the rifle balanced better with the bayonet fixed than without. However, at the relatively short ranges I was shooting, (no more than 150 meters) it mattered little. Plus, a Finnish 91/30 is a highly accurate weapon.
 
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blacksmith    RE:why bayonets?   2/18/2006 12:55:52 PM
To poke people with. There was a lot of talk here about bayonets on assault rifles, but what about on shotguns? Much of the infantry fighting in Iraq now is urban room-to-room stuff. Shotguns are ubiquous during these engegements. Would it make sense to have a pigsticker on the end since shotguns only carry a few rounds and you can be pretty sure when you go through the door that its going to be up close and personal?
 
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shek    RE:why bayonets? shotguns   2/18/2006 1:13:57 PM
Blacksmith, Shotguns certainly can be an effective weapon in the close fight, but their primary purpose is for door breaching, and as such, they are not a primary weapon.
 
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Iano_returns    RE:why bayonets? shotguns   2/18/2006 3:47:58 PM
Yes I would say blat the door off with a shotgun and then let the small arms go about their work! Yimmy thats something I've seen on sale as an MoD survival knife isn't it? Not that I've ever seen them issued! I've been umming and ahhing about whether to buy a decent blade as lets face it, its rare that you get bayonets if you're not at war and so you won't really have a big knife to hand if you need it. And even if you did get bayonets, if you're not in Iraq or Afghanistan they won't be sharp anyway! But a good big blade is pricey, I am poorish and I dont want to look over the top with it... Anyway if I do REALLY need it, as in I go somewhere nasty then I guess theres no point as I should have a sharp bayonet anyway. Argh stupid contradicting regulations! Bayonet assault course? I'm guessing you don't mean the type with obstacles on! The "get beasted and then stab the dummy" exercise you mean! The Russians must have been a bit crazy to have "fix bayonets" in force all the time. Not just the accuracy thing which seems minor from peoples experiences here, but they would glint and give away your position, and might break or blunt or wound your own guys being fixed all the time. And you'd lose that charging up effect when they do need to be fixed as it'd be commonplace. Although with the casualties and tactics of the Russkies one might say their "up front" warrior approach cant exactly be questioned!
 
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joe6pack    RE:why bayonets? shotguns   2/18/2006 4:06:39 PM
"The "get beasted and then stab the dummy" exercise you mean!" Yup, that's the one. Usually part of some course of run here, climb over that, run there, parry, stab the dummy, run over yonder, fight it out with commie dummy horde. Go to MOPP 4 - fight more dummys.. ahh the joy..
 
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Yimmy    RE:why bayonets? shotguns   2/18/2006 5:00:05 PM
Heh, I don't like the thought of going over an assault course with fitted bayonets! I once had the great pleasure of standing at the side of the rope swing on the Pirbright assault course, and see a poor infantry bloke completely lose it, and ending up backwards flying into the wall on the other side too low, with his ing handle going straight into the base of his spine.... ooh the screem of pain... (if you can't take joy in others misfortune, what can you take joy in?) "I am poorish and I dont want to look over the top with it" Yes, I know that feeling - mostly I end up leaving the survival knife at home on exercises... but those are the exercises of course when you have that annoying branch you want rid of!
 
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Iano_returns    RE:why bayonets? shotguns   2/18/2006 5:47:24 PM
Did anyone ever see the episode of "Soldiers to be" when some recruit was taking on the commie dummy hordes joe describes, after the beasting of course to get the lads charged up, and he snapped his bayonet in the dummy? Gave the DS a bit of a hard on I think! I think he said he just visualised his dad when he was stabbing it!! Or did I just invent that?
 
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