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Subject: EU/USA War, based on a specific scenario
mightypeon    9/14/2005 11:25:31 AM
Well, such a thing has been debated quite often, but never with a semirealistc Scenario in mind. Lets just go with the following quite random timeline: 2005/2006: several minor annoyances and trade disagreements happen between Europe and the USA. Bsuh, who is figures that he needs a populartiy boost seeks a spacegoat and starts a Nation wide Germany and France bashing campaign. Beeing bashed by Bush promtply leds to the reelection of Chancellor Schroeder. Spring 2006: The European Iranian talks come to a break, Iran stops its Nuclear programm as well as the support of terrorist groups in Israel, in exchange it gains a host of European arms. Amongst them is a shipment of 400 Leopard 2A4 tanks (in fact, Iran gets the Europane equipment the Europeans would have exchanged or upgraded enyway) In addition, the Iranians grant European companies first rights in developing Iranian Oil fields. Summer 2006 While the irani army is getting trained with their new equipment, a heavy shiite uprising breaks out in eastern Irak. The Shiites demand to be a part of Iran, the rebellion is crushed by the US military. 11.09.06 The US are hit by Terroists. The Gouverment claims Iran to be the culprit. The forces that just crushed the Shiite Rebellion in eastern Irak move up the border. Seeing a hole in the Iranian defense, an US general asks for permission to invade and gets it. While diplomatic conuselatins are still ongoing, the US troops overwhelm the tactically suprsied and not fully trained Irani border forces with minimal losses. The US imprisons the equally suprised European staff still teaching the Iranis. 18.09.06: While US forces are making further progress into Iran, the EU demands the freedom of its instruction staff. 19.09.06: Bush says "that the Europeans can kiss his behind" in an Interview. 20.09.06: German troops surround US bases in Germany. 21.09.06 Seeing America is distracted, Shiite rebels in Irak rise up again. All European powers cancel any overflight rights to the US that have been previously in place. A violent Mob lynches several Germans in a rural american willage, the local police stands by, of course this leads to another uproar in the EU. 22.09.06 With aid from local rebels, a British officer of Pakistani origin manages to escape his prison camp. He shoots a GI while doing so. 23.09.06 The American advance is stalled by logistal problems and constant partisan warfare. 24.09.06 Rumors inclince that the runaway British officer is activly particiapting in the Irani resistance. Pakistan cancel its cooperation with the US. 25.09.06 Under the cover of bad weather, the Iranis start are quick, dedicated and determined counter offensive against the US forces. The US line is breached. The way of the attack implies the Iranis had satellite info on the American positions, as well as human intelligence sources in the American army. In addition, the attack was carefully cordinated with partisan activites in the Ameriakn rear. The American gouverment blames the EU on the defeat and threatens consequences. Schroeder is cited saying "America and which army?" in a private circle. 26.09.05 A massive American airstrike takes out a lot of Irans ammunition producing facilites. Several EU cititzens are killed during the attack. Due to a misprinted order, a imprisoned European instructor is sent to Guantanamo because he shares the name of a terrorist. 27.09.06 The interment of a European instructor interred in Guantanamo is leaked to the BBC. Diplomatic relations between the EU countries and the USA are severed. China proclaims its neutrality in an eventual conflict. Fistfights break out before American Baracks in Germany. 28.09.06 Backed up by reeinforcements, the US manage to flank the Irani force. Hoping on the fact that the US have other problems to take care off, Iran offers peace talks. 29.09.06 A first ceasefire between Iran and the USA is concluded. Iran sends some "terrorists" to the US and labels them as the bad evil instigators. 30.09.06 The US refuses to return the still held instructors. The EU ulitmativly demand the return of the instructors. German troops move into 2 logistical US bases in Germany and arrest the American troops. 01.10.06 Led by a overly rash American Colonell, a Batallion of bradleys fires at approaching German troops. Beeing led by an equally rash German Oberst, the Leopard 2A6 MBTs fire back. The USA and Europe are at war. Now that we have a Scenario, what would be your predictions?
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Full scale nuclear war, Darth? - Norvicension   9/15/2005 7:41:37 PM
>>>While I'm certainly not as qualified as you to discuss military matters ;) I do think the your perceptions of what the results of nuclear war are are a little far off the mark. You say that in a full scale nuclear war between the EU and the US, the US with its infinitly larger nuclear arsenal would beat Europe, which at the most have approx. 400 deployable warheads, depending on how many SSBNs get out of port in time.<<< ---Well you are certainly qualified to have an opinion so long as you can support yourself with evidence. You have however mischaracterized my statement regarding the results. I have only said the USA would win(survive and recover) and Europe would lose(Destroyed completely and/or invaded and occupied). Unless you are saying this is not the most probable result of a Nuclear war between the US and EU. In which case you should explain yourself. How is what I said far off in your opinion? >>>So far, I think you've technically got the truth of it, but what would an American win mean? I'm fortunate enough to have some American relations, and from what I know of your people from them I think you overestimate the willingless of the American public to lose most - if not all - of the following: New York; Los Angeles; Washington; Chicago; Houston; Philadelphia; Phoenix; San Diego; Boston; San Antonio; Dallas; Detroit; San Jose; San Francisco; Indianapolis; Jacksonville; Columbus; Louisville; Austin; Baltimore; Memphis; Charlotte; Milwaukee; Nashville; El Paso; Seattle; Denver; Fort Worth; Portland; Oklahoma; Cleveland; Buffalo; Salt Lake City; Norfolk; Miami; Orlando; Birmingham; Montgomery; Las Vegas... and many others in their immediate vicinities + military targets.<<< ---We can deal with victory AFTER we win. It sure beats LOSING. I am not discussing post war scenarios. Also that list is a little to big for the size of your arsenal. Not that you couldnt damage them all. But you do not have the capacity to destroy all those cities in TOTAL AND hit military targets. More later but while you wait consider that most of those cities would require 6 to 10 warheads to completely destroy. Do the math. >>>While I agree that Europe would be wiped off the map, and something of America would be left standing, would you really win? The people of America are not stupid - far from it - and they'd be able to see the consequences of a nuclear war. Namely: Europe - the finest repository of art and culture in the world and a living record of the west's history stretching back 3000 years completely destroyed, along with about 17% of the world's population and a quarter of its economy. America - the powerhouse of the world, the axle upon which the world economy moves (nice metaphor there, don't you think ;) made into a cripple - a lifeless, irradiated shell, left dependant on food imports for its survival, its manufacturing base and the bulk of its workforce gone, its economy disintegrated.<<< ---Who has got more to lose? After answering that. Who do you think has to surrender? >>>Remember: As long as there's a chance that most of the EU missiles will reach their targets, the person (prob. POTUS) commanding the intitial nuclear strike must assume that ALL of the EU missiles will reach their targets. While I agree that that's a worst-case scenario, are Americans willing to risk it, merely to chastise some misguided former allies? You may think so - I disagree.<<< ---Yes
 
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Bluewings    RE:Norvicension.   9/15/2005 8:22:02 PM
Norvicension , I stand up and applause you :-) Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:Full scale nuclear war, Gixxx ?   9/15/2005 8:31:46 PM
>>I have only said the USA would win(survive and recover) and Europe would lose(Destroyed completely and/or invaded and occupied)<< Utter bull$hit . Anyway you cannot invade after using hundreds of Nukes on Europe . >>Who has got more to lose? After answering that. Who do you think has to surrender?<< You 're really thick man ... I mean THICK . Do you understand that it would be the end of the Western Civilization ???????? Chineses or Arabs would take the few americans still alive as slaves ... Bush would be shot by a US General before to press the button anyway . Gixxx , you 're a flag waving joke . Sorry , a thick flag waving joke . >>Americans are willing to risk it<< talk to the hand ... Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:Full scale nuclear war, Gixxx ?   9/15/2005 8:35:58 PM
Gixxx , do you f***ing understand that you put all your fellow Americans in the same stupid bag you live in ? Luckily , my American friends are not like you AT ALL , God forbid ... Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:Full scale nuclear war, Gixxx ?   9/15/2005 8:37:41 PM
You 're a disgrace , you disgust me .... Cheers .
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:full scale nuclear war norvicension   9/15/2005 8:48:24 PM
well said, norvicension!
 
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french stratege    Darth   9/15/2005 8:52:13 PM
I can assure you that nobody think here you would target our population if we use nukes on tactical way and even on some military targets in CONUS as you are the agressor so having more to loose considering your initial objective. And as a build up is to consider in the 6 months /2 years it will take, our position considering deterrent would be much stronguer. If 1200 hiroshima on US are not enough (300*120 kt), can you clarify at how much you think your losses are acceptable considering initial goal? Until 1000 nukes on CONUS? 5000?
 
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Pseudonym    RE:Full scale nuclear war, Darth?   9/15/2005 9:00:46 PM
"While I agree that that's a worst-case scenario, are Americans willing to risk it, merely to chastise some misguided former allies? You may think so - I disagree." The whole point of this thread is that the EU would be moving in to destroy American forces arrayed in Europe. Tens of Thousands of American Soldiers facing annihilation because they are now outnumbered deep in enemy territory. I doubt we would go straight to nuclear war. I would imagine that we would take out the French nuclear deterrent conventionally, then threaten nuclear war. Back a dog into a corner and it is your fault when he comes out biting. I know it sounds trivial, but 300 nuclear weapons will not wreak the havoc you describe. And seeing as how it will be us increasing the stakes, you can be sure we will be hitting enemy nuclear forces very hard. Now FS will get on and say how his uber secret French programs can see our stealth aircraft etc.... Whatever. Our bombs will be falling and the European nuclear deterrent will be obliterated long before we escalate.
 
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crashnburn    RE:Hey BW   9/15/2005 9:06:38 PM
I sure glad you are not emotional, I would hate to see you if you ever were. Always have to make it personal don't you BW?????? You don't usually win the arguements so you you stoop to....the norm. same old, same old....blah........ Crash
 
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crashnburn    RE:No need for nukes   9/15/2005 9:31:02 PM
I agree with Pseudonym, although nukes are a viable option if needed.I do not believe we(US) would have to go with that option to thrash the big, scary EU. Once again here we are.....my is bigger than yours........ You know ours is much bigger than yours....truth being just that ..you know ....TRUTH. Your best squadron of air force is in Germany w/ Mig 29's. If this scenerio happened, which it won't(you aren't this stupid!) Europe would see what the US can really can do. Would you really want to find that out? Your real military leaders know better, and so should you.Would it be worth it? NO! Can we crush you?? YES! If we used just 20% of our forces you would be history....... Just for $hits and giggles I'll list for you 20% (conventionial) 250 F16's, 150 F15's,20 B52's,5 B2's, 20 B1's, 150 F18's, 5 F22's, 3 carriers, 7 LA class, 10 F117's...................you are toast...your move. Hell we wouldn't fight anyone but France anyway, because we would make secret agreement with Germany and tell them they can have half of France after the surrender.Now wouldn't that be nice. hehehehehe Crash
 
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