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Subject: EU/USA War, based on a specific scenario
mightypeon    9/14/2005 11:25:31 AM
Well, such a thing has been debated quite often, but never with a semirealistc Scenario in mind. Lets just go with the following quite random timeline: 2005/2006: several minor annoyances and trade disagreements happen between Europe and the USA. Bsuh, who is figures that he needs a populartiy boost seeks a spacegoat and starts a Nation wide Germany and France bashing campaign. Beeing bashed by Bush promtply leds to the reelection of Chancellor Schroeder. Spring 2006: The European Iranian talks come to a break, Iran stops its Nuclear programm as well as the support of terrorist groups in Israel, in exchange it gains a host of European arms. Amongst them is a shipment of 400 Leopard 2A4 tanks (in fact, Iran gets the Europane equipment the Europeans would have exchanged or upgraded enyway) In addition, the Iranians grant European companies first rights in developing Iranian Oil fields. Summer 2006 While the irani army is getting trained with their new equipment, a heavy shiite uprising breaks out in eastern Irak. The Shiites demand to be a part of Iran, the rebellion is crushed by the US military. 11.09.06 The US are hit by Terroists. The Gouverment claims Iran to be the culprit. The forces that just crushed the Shiite Rebellion in eastern Irak move up the border. Seeing a hole in the Iranian defense, an US general asks for permission to invade and gets it. While diplomatic conuselatins are still ongoing, the US troops overwhelm the tactically suprsied and not fully trained Irani border forces with minimal losses. The US imprisons the equally suprised European staff still teaching the Iranis. 18.09.06: While US forces are making further progress into Iran, the EU demands the freedom of its instruction staff. 19.09.06: Bush says "that the Europeans can kiss his behind" in an Interview. 20.09.06: German troops surround US bases in Germany. 21.09.06 Seeing America is distracted, Shiite rebels in Irak rise up again. All European powers cancel any overflight rights to the US that have been previously in place. A violent Mob lynches several Germans in a rural american willage, the local police stands by, of course this leads to another uproar in the EU. 22.09.06 With aid from local rebels, a British officer of Pakistani origin manages to escape his prison camp. He shoots a GI while doing so. 23.09.06 The American advance is stalled by logistal problems and constant partisan warfare. 24.09.06 Rumors inclince that the runaway British officer is activly particiapting in the Irani resistance. Pakistan cancel its cooperation with the US. 25.09.06 Under the cover of bad weather, the Iranis start are quick, dedicated and determined counter offensive against the US forces. The US line is breached. The way of the attack implies the Iranis had satellite info on the American positions, as well as human intelligence sources in the American army. In addition, the attack was carefully cordinated with partisan activites in the Ameriakn rear. The American gouverment blames the EU on the defeat and threatens consequences. Schroeder is cited saying "America and which army?" in a private circle. 26.09.05 A massive American airstrike takes out a lot of Irans ammunition producing facilites. Several EU cititzens are killed during the attack. Due to a misprinted order, a imprisoned European instructor is sent to Guantanamo because he shares the name of a terrorist. 27.09.06 The interment of a European instructor interred in Guantanamo is leaked to the BBC. Diplomatic relations between the EU countries and the USA are severed. China proclaims its neutrality in an eventual conflict. Fistfights break out before American Baracks in Germany. 28.09.06 Backed up by reeinforcements, the US manage to flank the Irani force. Hoping on the fact that the US have other problems to take care off, Iran offers peace talks. 29.09.06 A first ceasefire between Iran and the USA is concluded. Iran sends some "terrorists" to the US and labels them as the bad evil instigators. 30.09.06 The US refuses to return the still held instructors. The EU ulitmativly demand the return of the instructors. German troops move into 2 logistical US bases in Germany and arrest the American troops. 01.10.06 Led by a overly rash American Colonell, a Batallion of bradleys fires at approaching German troops. Beeing led by an equally rash German Oberst, the Leopard 2A6 MBTs fire back. The USA and Europe are at war. Now that we have a Scenario, what would be your predictions?
 
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Heorot    RE:Paul   10/17/2005 8:01:21 AM
You will get less sence out of Pseudo than Darth. He's an estate agent, what do you expect? intelligence?
 
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paul1970    RE:Paul   10/17/2005 8:34:39 AM
its not a hard question is it??? I have aksed darth what " And lets not forget that we are there because the people who live there are notorious for creating the conditions that lead to disastrous wars. " means at least 4 times now and he has not managed to answer such a simple question... instead he tries to change the subject and call me a liar when I assume he means "cause more wars"...... since he will not answer then perhaps you could suggest, or any others out there who understand how Darth uses English, what he might mean by " And lets not forget that we are there because the people who live there are notorious for creating the conditions that lead to disastrous wars. " perhaps Pseud can shed some light on what it means since he keeps interjecting and sides with Darth?
 
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paul1970    RE:Pseud   10/17/2005 8:51:17 AM
Darth he is just gonna change the subject and then eventually try to do the same thing later. His ears and mind are closed. He believes he is right and all knowing. Whats that saying about true wisdom is knowing your ignorance? Previous Comment you forgot the punctuation at the start.. :-) I am the one trying to stay on subject here... can you not see that Darth is not answering my question as to what he means? can I make it any clearer to him that I would like to know what he means by his statement so that I can answer it rather than answering what I assumed to be his point? forget for a moment that you and I do not see eye to eye over myself wanting action taken against terrorists attacking Turkey from Northern Iraq and you not wanting this because you think it will make matters worse in Iraq. if you understand what he meant by " And lets not forget that we are there because the people who live there are notorious for creating the conditions that lead to disastrous wars. " then please tell me, because to me it translates to "causes more wars" and he has yet to explain what he meant by it.... once he explains this then I can answer it... I keep repeating myself here because everytime I ask he tries to change the subject and I want to stay on track.. so please...... can Darth or someone who understands how he is using English please tell me what Darth means by.... " And lets not forget that we are there because the people who live there are notorious for creating the conditions that lead to disastrous wars. "?
 
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oldbutnotwise    America the peacefull country? true or false   10/17/2005 11:31:31 AM
Whilst having nothing against the US, I find that the idea of it being a peaceful country as opposed to the warmongers of europe difficult to understand, for a country that is bearly over 200 years old they have quite the warlike record, having fought mexico and canada, cuba, morroco, china, philipeans, Britian, france, germany, Italy, japan, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, Loas, Cambodia, Afganistan, spain, Domincan republic,Nicaragua,Hawaii, Panama, not to mention the boodest civil war ever fought and genocide of the native americans on a scale that would have impressed stalin and hitler. and i have probably missed a few
 
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relic    RE:America the peacefull country? true or false   10/17/2005 12:05:37 PM
It is not "wise" to toss those conflicts out there without some context.
 
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paul1970    RE:America the peacefull country? true or false   10/17/2005 12:14:11 PM
there are a few but I am not sure you can accuse the US of strating them all.... you would have to break down which ones actually attacked America first... and take them out of it because you are allowed to defend yourself surely... also don't actually think that America actually fought a war against France???? well except for a phoney war but that was.... phoney.. :-)
 
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relic    RE:paul1970    10/17/2005 12:19:36 PM
...and there are way to many "pots" and "kettles" around here for anyone to be pointing fingers at who is more warlike.
 
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paul1970    RE:America the peacefull country? true or false   10/17/2005 12:33:03 PM
RE:America the peacefull country? true or false 10/17/2005 12:05:37 PM It is not "wise" to toss those conflicts out there without some context. yeah, but it sets up a rough level straight away to compare with... I suppose you could have a count on the number of conflicts started by each country? you would have to have some form of date system though so that countries that have only been around 100/200/300 years can be compared with those that have been around 1000/2000/3000+ years. so we could raise a new thread and each pick a country to suggest and support as the most agressive country throughout its history?
 
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Basilisk Station    RE:America the peacefull country? true or false   10/17/2005 1:32:50 PM
>Whilst having nothing against the US, I find that the idea of it >being a peaceful country as opposed to the warmongers of europe >difficult to understand, for a country that is bearly over 200 >years old they have quite the warlike record, having fought mexico >and canada, cuba, morroco, china, philipeans, Britian, france, germany, Italy, japan, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, Loas, Cambodia, Afganistan, spain, Domincan republic,Nicaragua,Hawaii, Panama, not to mention the boodest civil war ever fought and genocide of the native americans on a scale that would have impressed stalin and hitler. and i have probably missed a few Your classification of "wars" would certainly give creedence to your Handle being correct. You also seem to be tossing out a bunch of unrelated incidents and lumping them in with some fairly slanderous and incindiary comments. France could only be included if you counted the French and Indian War, which predates the founding of the US as an independent nation. Canada was conquered by England, not the US and was part of England/A colony when attacked by the US during the War of 1812. Cuba was fought over in the Spanish-American war, but never attacked directly, unless you want to count the Bay of Pigs invasion. That was more of a proxie fight in my opinion though. The Philipeans, though also fought over more than with, you have a somewhat stronger case on. Since the US did essentially wage a war to supress the initial independence movement there. However, the US did voluntarily agree to relinquish the Philipeans and grant them independence in 1946, well before the outbreak of WWII. This is one of the reasons why the Philipean Army stayed loyal to the US and fought against the Japanese. The US also lived up to its promise after the war. China attacked the US if you are refering to the Korean War. The Boxer Rebellion doesn't really rise to the level of a "war" with the US, again in my opinion. The US was active in trying to oppose colonial division of China by the other great powers of the day in any case. Morroco, has me puzzled unless you are referring to the punitive expeditions against the Barbary pirates? I'm not sure that piracy suppression is what one would consider "agressive and warlike" behavior, since piracy is a crime and generally not regarded as a positive thing. Germany, Japan, Italy, at least with regards to WWII they declared war on us and Japan started the war with a sneak attack. With regards to Germany and WWI we did declare war on them, but it was hardly what you'd call an excess of warlike enthusiasim. The US record in central and south america is well pretty shameful in my opinion. I'd have to admit that the Monroe Doctrine was largely a case of "Don't meddle in our backyard, we're too busy bossing them around". I'm not really much up on the Mexican-American war, but it does seem to me like a case of Mexico complaining that "Hey we stole that first" given the spanish conquests there. The American Civil War, while by far the bloodiest war in terms of US casualties is small potatoes by historical standards. More people were killed by the Kymer Rouge and in the Rwandan civil war and they had far smaller populations than the US had even at the time of the civil war. Most of the carnage in the war comes from it being the first war that was fought with essentially "modern-industrial age" technology. Unfortunately, nobody learned from this and the carnage went on to be repeated manyfold in WWI. Your Hitler and Stalin comparisons were pure troll. So minus points for creativity and original thought on that. BTW, there is a joke that WWII resulted from a bet between Hitler and Stalin as to who could kill more Russians. Hitler lost the bet. As far as treatment of the Native Americans go, it's not something I'm proud of, but its not like what happened is appreciably different from that in any number of "Barbarian" invasions over the centuries. Nor was it (small comfort this) much worse than they were treated elsewhere in the Americas. Not one of the more admirable aspects of US history in any case. Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to describe the US as peaceful, but we have certainly had strong isolationist tendencies.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:America the peacefull country? true or false   10/17/2005 1:46:40 PM
Its not about being a peaceful nation. War is a part of human nature and inevitable. Its knowing when to war which obviously we do. And being King of the hill means you have obligations that other nations dont. Take Canada for example. No looming threats or national security interest that arent already secured by alliances so no need to go on the warpath. Everything is based on context. In fact who even brought up this nonsense about "peaceful country". I suspect biased ignorance. This is an irrelevant topic in the real world.
 
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