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Subject: EU/USA War, based on a specific scenario
mightypeon    9/14/2005 11:25:31 AM
Well, such a thing has been debated quite often, but never with a semirealistc Scenario in mind. Lets just go with the following quite random timeline: 2005/2006: several minor annoyances and trade disagreements happen between Europe and the USA. Bsuh, who is figures that he needs a populartiy boost seeks a spacegoat and starts a Nation wide Germany and France bashing campaign. Beeing bashed by Bush promtply leds to the reelection of Chancellor Schroeder. Spring 2006: The European Iranian talks come to a break, Iran stops its Nuclear programm as well as the support of terrorist groups in Israel, in exchange it gains a host of European arms. Amongst them is a shipment of 400 Leopard 2A4 tanks (in fact, Iran gets the Europane equipment the Europeans would have exchanged or upgraded enyway) In addition, the Iranians grant European companies first rights in developing Iranian Oil fields. Summer 2006 While the irani army is getting trained with their new equipment, a heavy shiite uprising breaks out in eastern Irak. The Shiites demand to be a part of Iran, the rebellion is crushed by the US military. 11.09.06 The US are hit by Terroists. The Gouverment claims Iran to be the culprit. The forces that just crushed the Shiite Rebellion in eastern Irak move up the border. Seeing a hole in the Iranian defense, an US general asks for permission to invade and gets it. While diplomatic conuselatins are still ongoing, the US troops overwhelm the tactically suprsied and not fully trained Irani border forces with minimal losses. The US imprisons the equally suprised European staff still teaching the Iranis. 18.09.06: While US forces are making further progress into Iran, the EU demands the freedom of its instruction staff. 19.09.06: Bush says "that the Europeans can kiss his behind" in an Interview. 20.09.06: German troops surround US bases in Germany. 21.09.06 Seeing America is distracted, Shiite rebels in Irak rise up again. All European powers cancel any overflight rights to the US that have been previously in place. A violent Mob lynches several Germans in a rural american willage, the local police stands by, of course this leads to another uproar in the EU. 22.09.06 With aid from local rebels, a British officer of Pakistani origin manages to escape his prison camp. He shoots a GI while doing so. 23.09.06 The American advance is stalled by logistal problems and constant partisan warfare. 24.09.06 Rumors inclince that the runaway British officer is activly particiapting in the Irani resistance. Pakistan cancel its cooperation with the US. 25.09.06 Under the cover of bad weather, the Iranis start are quick, dedicated and determined counter offensive against the US forces. The US line is breached. The way of the attack implies the Iranis had satellite info on the American positions, as well as human intelligence sources in the American army. In addition, the attack was carefully cordinated with partisan activites in the Ameriakn rear. The American gouverment blames the EU on the defeat and threatens consequences. Schroeder is cited saying "America and which army?" in a private circle. 26.09.05 A massive American airstrike takes out a lot of Irans ammunition producing facilites. Several EU cititzens are killed during the attack. Due to a misprinted order, a imprisoned European instructor is sent to Guantanamo because he shares the name of a terrorist. 27.09.06 The interment of a European instructor interred in Guantanamo is leaked to the BBC. Diplomatic relations between the EU countries and the USA are severed. China proclaims its neutrality in an eventual conflict. Fistfights break out before American Baracks in Germany. 28.09.06 Backed up by reeinforcements, the US manage to flank the Irani force. Hoping on the fact that the US have other problems to take care off, Iran offers peace talks. 29.09.06 A first ceasefire between Iran and the USA is concluded. Iran sends some "terrorists" to the US and labels them as the bad evil instigators. 30.09.06 The US refuses to return the still held instructors. The EU ulitmativly demand the return of the instructors. German troops move into 2 logistical US bases in Germany and arrest the American troops. 01.10.06 Led by a overly rash American Colonell, a Batallion of bradleys fires at approaching German troops. Beeing led by an equally rash German Oberst, the Leopard 2A6 MBTs fire back. The USA and Europe are at war. Now that we have a Scenario, what would be your predictions?
 
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paul1970    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/4/2005 10:52:44 AM
you are in a world of your own.... why can you not admit that the north won the Vietnam war? North Vietnam won the war... they are the ones there in the south capital at the end...... the fact that America withdrew and decided not to support the south (whether this broke any agreements made at Paris is beside the point as you yourself don't bother to honour agreements made in any of your posts) in the last stages does not change anything.. the north won the war. could you post links to books that actually conclude that the US won the Vietnam war? preferably by someone acknowledged in the field of history. every book I have read have the north winning the war and the US on the losing side... a lot of these books are wrote by Americans... a lot by Americans who actually fought there.
 
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Yimmy    RE:US Victory in Vietnam - jlb   10/4/2005 11:16:12 AM
"I accept that some of you will disagree with the fact that the USA won the Vietnam War" Ahahahahaha ha ha!! Thanks for that.
 
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paul1970    RE:US Victory in Vietnam - jlb   10/4/2005 11:44:19 AM
"I accept that some of you will disagree with the fact that the USA won the Vietnam War" Ahahahahaha ha ha!! Thanks for that. everyone in Vietnam maybe???? :-)
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/4/2005 11:56:24 AM
But I also accept the fact that many of you dont have the will, knowledge or ability to understand things as they are. Your loss.
 
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Cootamundra    RE:Fall Out v. Darth   10/5/2005 1:29:16 AM
Darth wrote >>>> Americans are inward looking because 90% of the rest of the world isnt worth the look!>>> then quoted FO>>>Remember, there ARE reasons and logicall one's at that that many are anti-US!<<< Then wrote >>>> List your reason.>>> Darth old boy, that would be reason # 1! And heck I like reading your posts, but sometimes you go to far. I can just see you now, fuming at your PC, tapping madly away like some loon...see you could've played nicely but with that last comment you just nailed yourself Kindest Regards, Coota
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Fall Out v. Darth - Cootamundra   10/5/2005 2:11:48 AM
>>>Jesus H Christ your a friggen stubborn idiot mate! You lack a god damn functioning brain! America lost in Vietnam, nobody here or in the entire bloody world agrees with you except for some ultra-nationalist, immensely (idiotic) proud and stubborn and believe that America is the number one in everything she does/is... Why do you think so many ppl around the world are anti-US when ppl like you dribble the amount of crap that you do! That Americans on a whole are so inward looking it's not funny, that most Americans couldn't point out 95% of world's nations on a map accurately!<<< ---The text(From Fallout) above puts into context my response. Read it and see if you still think I go too far. If so, and since we have manage not to lock horns before, point out specifically what I said that in your opinion goes too far as a response to the above text.
 
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Jimme    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/5/2005 2:29:13 AM
" why can you not admit that the north won the Vietnam war? North Vietnam won the war... they are the ones there in the south capital at the end...... the fact that America withdrew and decided not to support the south (whether this broke any agreements made at Paris is beside the point as you yourself don't bother to honour agreements made in any of your posts) in the last stages does not change anything.. the north won the war. could you post links to books that actually conclude that the US won the Vietnam war? preferably by someone acknowledged in the field of history. every book I have read have the north winning the war and the US on the losing side... a lot of these books are wrote by Americans... a lot by Americans who actually fought there."-Paul the Paris peace accord is very relevent, in case you need to refreshen heres a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords What you need to pay attention to is that a)North was Forced to the negotiating table by the US. They both signed the cease fire. b)As per agreement the US withdrew its troops in 1973. c)At this point it is a stalemate no one has lost or won, US acting on the souths behalf is lifted from its earlier obligations. d) 2 years AFTER the US is gone the North breaks it agreement and re-invades. Now from this there are a few facts to draw on Fact 1) US DID NOT LOSE the war , it left it on a stalemate in which the two parties have agreed to a cease fire. Fact 2) North DID NOT BEAT THE US MILITARY, If they did they would never have been a treaty or agreement. US Forced them to concede. Fact 3) NOT until US forces were 2 years removed did the North have a succesfull invasion. If US had not pulled out THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO INVADE! So in essence, US did not Win the war but they certainly didnt lose the war either. bottom line is they were not beaten. the south was, 2 years later, making it a DIFFERENT WAR!
 
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paul1970    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/5/2005 6:28:46 AM
look again at the deatil of Paris... it was a backdoor get out for the US because they did not want to carry on the fight that did not seem to be possible to win... the North were not going to give in.. ceasfire in no way means the end of a war... it means a pause in the fighting... all sides knew that this was just a pause. surely you don't belive that Nixon and Kissinger were so niave as to belive that Paris ment the end of the war? the US did not lose militarily but they did not achive any of their war aims... the North reinvaded and won... what was different in 75 to when the US went in to protect the South? to put another sports analogy.... the US did not want to come out of its corner for round 3. the only side that won the war was the North.
 
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Basilisk Station    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/5/2005 10:33:58 AM
It's basically splitting hairs to conclude that the US won the Vietnam war. Ho Chi Min and his cohorts had been struggling for independence since sometime around the end of WWI (He was pushing for Vietnam's independance at the peace conference to end WWI). It doesn't matter if the US won every battle, it was still a tremendously corrosive war for the US military and US society. So the US pulled out of the conflict because the political costs of being in the conflict had become to high. As Clausewitz said "War is the continuation of politics by other means". So saying the US won because a peace treaty had been signed and therefore anything that happens after that doesn't matter, is ignoring the fact that the basis of the conflict wasn't US involvement, but Vietnam's independence. Ho Chi Min and the communists weren't going to quit until it was one country. Even if the US had never even engaged in military conflict in Vietnam, the outcome would still have been viewed as a defeat for the US and its interests, just like the victory of the Communists in China was. Back to the main topic though. First the scenario ignores a basic fact in that Democracies don't tend to go to war with each other, for the simple reason that they have other ways of resolving conflicts. Second the US troops lingering in Europe long after things had gotten to the point of a a shooting war is absurd. There has long been strong support for pulling US troops out of Europe, even at the height of the cold war. If Europe and the US started getting into some serious conflicts, the troops would be yanked home so quickly it would make your head spin. Simply because the isolationists wouldn't want to bother defending Europe from menaces that don't exist.
 
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Pseudonym    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/5/2005 3:33:11 PM
"Second the US troops lingering in Europe long after things had gotten to the point of a a shooting war is absurd. There has long been strong support for pulling US troops out of Europe, even at the height of the cold war. If Europe and the US started getting into some serious conflicts, the troops would be yanked home so quickly it would make your head spin. Simply because the isolationists wouldn't want to bother defending Europe from menaces that don't exist." I agree we should have left Europe and NATO in the 1960's. Or maybe just not gone over there in 41' and concentrated on Japan, or maybe just sat back and watched WW1 stretch out until the entire European male population was so diminished that WW2 could not happen. It is funny, our policy of reacting before a War becomes Major and disrupts the world was a policy FORCED UPON US BY EUROPE. YOU GUILT TRIPPED US INTO IT. I really think it would have been funny if we had left NATO like France did. That would have been so funny to watch reality dawn bloodily upon the ignorant and stupidly optimistic.
 
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