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Subject: EU/USA War, based on a specific scenario
mightypeon    9/14/2005 11:25:31 AM
Well, such a thing has been debated quite often, but never with a semirealistc Scenario in mind. Lets just go with the following quite random timeline: 2005/2006: several minor annoyances and trade disagreements happen between Europe and the USA. Bsuh, who is figures that he needs a populartiy boost seeks a spacegoat and starts a Nation wide Germany and France bashing campaign. Beeing bashed by Bush promtply leds to the reelection of Chancellor Schroeder. Spring 2006: The European Iranian talks come to a break, Iran stops its Nuclear programm as well as the support of terrorist groups in Israel, in exchange it gains a host of European arms. Amongst them is a shipment of 400 Leopard 2A4 tanks (in fact, Iran gets the Europane equipment the Europeans would have exchanged or upgraded enyway) In addition, the Iranians grant European companies first rights in developing Iranian Oil fields. Summer 2006 While the irani army is getting trained with their new equipment, a heavy shiite uprising breaks out in eastern Irak. The Shiites demand to be a part of Iran, the rebellion is crushed by the US military. 11.09.06 The US are hit by Terroists. The Gouverment claims Iran to be the culprit. The forces that just crushed the Shiite Rebellion in eastern Irak move up the border. Seeing a hole in the Iranian defense, an US general asks for permission to invade and gets it. While diplomatic conuselatins are still ongoing, the US troops overwhelm the tactically suprsied and not fully trained Irani border forces with minimal losses. The US imprisons the equally suprised European staff still teaching the Iranis. 18.09.06: While US forces are making further progress into Iran, the EU demands the freedom of its instruction staff. 19.09.06: Bush says "that the Europeans can kiss his behind" in an Interview. 20.09.06: German troops surround US bases in Germany. 21.09.06 Seeing America is distracted, Shiite rebels in Irak rise up again. All European powers cancel any overflight rights to the US that have been previously in place. A violent Mob lynches several Germans in a rural american willage, the local police stands by, of course this leads to another uproar in the EU. 22.09.06 With aid from local rebels, a British officer of Pakistani origin manages to escape his prison camp. He shoots a GI while doing so. 23.09.06 The American advance is stalled by logistal problems and constant partisan warfare. 24.09.06 Rumors inclince that the runaway British officer is activly particiapting in the Irani resistance. Pakistan cancel its cooperation with the US. 25.09.06 Under the cover of bad weather, the Iranis start are quick, dedicated and determined counter offensive against the US forces. The US line is breached. The way of the attack implies the Iranis had satellite info on the American positions, as well as human intelligence sources in the American army. In addition, the attack was carefully cordinated with partisan activites in the Ameriakn rear. The American gouverment blames the EU on the defeat and threatens consequences. Schroeder is cited saying "America and which army?" in a private circle. 26.09.05 A massive American airstrike takes out a lot of Irans ammunition producing facilites. Several EU cititzens are killed during the attack. Due to a misprinted order, a imprisoned European instructor is sent to Guantanamo because he shares the name of a terrorist. 27.09.06 The interment of a European instructor interred in Guantanamo is leaked to the BBC. Diplomatic relations between the EU countries and the USA are severed. China proclaims its neutrality in an eventual conflict. Fistfights break out before American Baracks in Germany. 28.09.06 Backed up by reeinforcements, the US manage to flank the Irani force. Hoping on the fact that the US have other problems to take care off, Iran offers peace talks. 29.09.06 A first ceasefire between Iran and the USA is concluded. Iran sends some "terrorists" to the US and labels them as the bad evil instigators. 30.09.06 The US refuses to return the still held instructors. The EU ulitmativly demand the return of the instructors. German troops move into 2 logistical US bases in Germany and arrest the American troops. 01.10.06 Led by a overly rash American Colonell, a Batallion of bradleys fires at approaching German troops. Beeing led by an equally rash German Oberst, the Leopard 2A6 MBTs fire back. The USA and Europe are at war. Now that we have a Scenario, what would be your predictions?
 
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paul1970    RE:strategic goals of the U.S in Korea and Vietnam   9/30/2005 11:07:28 AM
>>>thats a bit like saying the your team did not lose a game because you went off injured at half time and it was a draw then.... :-)<<< ---Very bad analogy. Its more like the North wins the next fight against a different opponent. same opponent as it always was north versus south....just that the US decided not to get involved in the second half... perhaps the US shouldn't have got involved in the first place and saved all the bother? the rest of the world think the Vetnam war was 1957-1975 and did not start when the US joined in 1965? and did not finish in 1973 when the US pulled out...
 
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momus    RE:strategic goals of the U.S in Korea and Vietnam   9/30/2005 10:34:50 PM
"the rest of the world think the Vetnam war was 1957-1975 and did not start when the US joined in 1965? and did not finish in 1973 when the US pulled out..." I guess I never thought about the rest of the world thinking that way about the war. To me, there were the French years when they tried to reassert their empire and then left. Following that was a gap until the US became involved. Then the US left the south on its own and the north invaded and conquered. Thanks for the reference to "Decent Interval"--I'll look it up. m
 
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Jimme    RE:strategic goals of the U.S in Korea and Vietnam   10/1/2005 12:35:06 AM
" >>>thats a bit like saying the your team did not lose a game because you went off injured at half time and it was a draw then.... :-)<<< ---Very bad analogy. Its more like the North wins the next fight against a different opponent. same opponent as it always was north versus south....just that the US decided not to get involved in the second half... perhaps the US shouldn't have got involved in the first place and saved all the bother? the rest of the world think the Vetnam war was 1957-1975 and did not start when the US joined in 1965? and did not finish in 1973 when the US pulled out..."-paul I have a perfect analogy. In baseball when a pitcher is pulled out in a tie game , he cannot be charged with a loss even if his team losses because he left the game on even terms. Would the US have been better off if it had never entered the war, maybe. I know on my block when i was growing up and someone picked a fight with you it was always better to fight back and lose then not to fight at all.
 
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jlb    RE:strategic goals of the U.S in Korea and Vietnam   10/1/2005 10:41:45 AM
the French Army also likes to think they won the Algerian war. They'll even prove it to you. Fact remains, Algeria is independant today. And Saigon has been part of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam for 30 years. Yes, the US Army and USMC won almost all the battles. But the war was lost nevertheless.
 
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DarthAmerica    US Victory in Vietnam   10/1/2005 12:18:13 PM
>>>Yes, the US Army and USMC won all the battles. But the war was lost nevertheless.<<< ---No. South Vietnam lost the last in a series of Wars where it fought Alone against the North. The United States was successful in achieving its objectives and Winning the US Vietnam War during its involvement and that cannot be disputed logically or historically. THe Vietnam War is more accurately discribed as the "Vietnam Wars" rather than one continuous war. Much like the French and Indian Wars. Also, while the demise of South Vietnam was unfortunate at the time. Looking at Vietnam today, which is closer to the US than its former benefactor. One could argue that in the end. The outcome ended up more favorable to the USA and capitalism in general.
 
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eldnah    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/1/2005 8:00:27 PM
Who won the Vietnam War? As a proud grandparent I beg your indulgence as I brag about the Baseball skills of my young grandson. As a reward for making the state's all-star age group team I offered and proceded to buy him what was considered the best and hotest baseball glove. After he got the glove home I read the writing on it-"Made in Vietnam"
 
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paul1970    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/3/2005 5:15:16 AM
yep... so what the US could not do militarily they ended up doing diplomatically... once the US restored relations everything worked out fine. the war was a waste of a lot of lives and time since the US objectives seem to have been solved without bombs and bullets... you say US and capitalism in general.... but do not say a victory for Vietnam... surely they benefit the most? you could say a series of wars if you take the French conflict and US conflict as different... the history books do... but all the books and the rest of the world see the Vietnam war as 57-75... much the same as WW1 was 1914-1918 and WW2 was 1939-1945... someone could make a case that these were not one war but a series of wars with differenty powers joining at different times... but a more accurate way of viewing it is that they were one war with a series of phases..
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:US Victory in Vietnam   10/3/2005 3:58:08 PM
>>>you could say a series of wars if you take the French conflict and US conflict as different... the history books do... but all the books and the rest of the world see the Vietnam war as 57-75...<<< ---Im sure books written by people jealous of the USA and who wish to revise history in order to find so way to paint the USA in a bad light say that. But it doesnt mean squat. HISTORY and DOCUMENTATION prove that the USA Won the Vietnam War regardless. That cant be changed.
 
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jlb    RE:US Victory in Vietnam - darth   10/3/2005 5:12:30 PM
Darth, I'm sure you're a great guy, your technical posts are very good reading, but politically you're living in a world of your own. you ever come to Paris, find a way to get hold of me, I'll be glad to buy you a glass of wine or two - I mean it. but get a grip with the world.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:US Victory in Vietnam - jlb   10/3/2005 5:38:49 PM
Thanks for the offer. I accept that some of you will disagree with the fact that the USA won the Vietnam War. We simply agree to disagree. I'm fine with that.
 
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