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Subject: France is a relatively weak military power.
Nappy    6/23/2005 5:02:28 PM
France is a relatively weak military power in terms of the world. It has neither logisitcal nor economic capability to invade none other then it's neighbors (possibly a land invasion of England included). What do I mean by invasion? Ability to completely invade,dominate, and ultimately totally control (not like the "green zone" areas and chaos we see in Iraq). Germany is a possiblity but their armaments production capability is far higher then France. Spain is also a possiblity, but to be frank not possible due to the terrain(Pyrnees), and capability of the Spanish airforce (they have a significant airforce believe it or not, in fact with a budget of 8 billion annually just for the airforce.) England is a possiblity also, the French navy is significantly inferior to the English navy but it's possible to perhaps make a surprise landing. As far as comparing France to say an India. This is ludicrous. If India wishes, (this will NEVER happen) she could invade Russia and take Moscow (without Nuclear weapons of course), this could be done fairly easily by India (perhaps with a loss of 20-30 million Indians), Indians frankly pump out more and better qualified engineers, chemist then say France and Russia combined as per the DOW chemical company R&D report in 2004, and have a better capacity to utilize these resources, the Indian economy is much bigger in production capability then say a France or Russia (as output by ODM per operating cost). Finally, I just don't believe France has the "willpower" to do anything like an invasion. It's people are too inclined to luxuries and other wasteful and decadent excess that they will rather surrender or bargain with another power rather then fight. I do not mean to offend or upset anyone (in fact this is a complement to the highly developed social paradise setup by the French people) but the realities are that in a war France would probably roll over.
 
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dudley    RE:moratorium?   6/24/2005 2:04:44 AM
french military victories Your search - french military victories - did not match any documents. Suggestions:. - Make sure all words are spelled correctly. - Try different keywords. ...defeats,vichy,turning tale and hauling ass,napolean at waterloo and his greatest mosccow musings etc..........
 
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trib    RE:moratorium?   6/24/2005 4:20:10 AM
that's a really really old one, this google bombing was made 2 years ago..... anyways, I agree with FS there should be a special place for french bashing here.
 
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Bluewings    RE:France is a relatively weak military power.   6/24/2005 10:55:30 AM
What an interesting post . I am still under Nappy 's spell ... I know now that the only hope left to me is to open the yellow pages and look for the phone number of Lichtenstein 's Ambassy and ask for citizenship ... Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:France is a relatively weak military power.   6/24/2005 11:01:00 AM
Nappies ~may I call you Nappies as you really smell like S*hit ?~ , could you explain to us how India would defeat Russia ? Cheers .
 
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jhaley    RE:France is a relatively weak military power.   6/24/2005 12:15:30 PM
The Indians stop buying the Russian stuff, and the Russians sue for peace to get the market share back.... French put in a bid for Walmart and Target, they threaten to close the store's unless the citizens overthrow their anti French governments! Riot's in the street, world economy goes into a tail spin...A billion pissed off Chinese march on Peking. France becomes the new world superpower!!!!
 
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Old Grunt    RE:France becomes the new world superpower!!!!    6/24/2005 12:21:27 PM
With really friendly old people working the customs entrance gates. "Thanks for coming to France, would you like a car(t)?"
 
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jhaley    RE:France becomes the new world superpower!!!!    6/24/2005 12:23:19 PM
Yea' but they would be better built French carts!
 
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bsl    RE:France is a relatively weak military power.   6/24/2005 10:35:41 PM
Oddly enough, this could be an interesting question, although I notice that it's already deteriorated into nonsense. There is a reasonable argument to be made in support of the thesis. France's ability to project power can be argued to be at a low ebb compared to almost any point in the last 400 years. In absolute terms, France's nuclear ability is a level of power unmatched in the prenuclear era. However, this is a peculiarly limited kind of "power". It's the power to destroy, although even this is limited in that France can't credibly threaten to use it in many circumstances outside the borders of France, either because of facing an even more powerful nuclear power or a target which gains the support of another nuclear power. But, even in the pure form, this power is much more limited than the usual kinds of "power" in international terms. France can't use it to get much from other countries. It can't use it to control other countries or resources. It's a defense of France. I'm not sure it's much else. The rest of French power adds up to a genuinely modern military, with a much greater capacity to expand that military if the political will were present. But, it's not any longer the ability to dominate any part of Europe. It's not the ability to dominate almost any part of the world where almost anyone not a primitive country opposes France. Or, where allies can be found. The African adventures clearly depend on the absence of opposition from any of the other major powers of the present age. And, we could easily see an African-based alliance form out of resenment of this remnant of the Colonial Era which will be strong enough to end this age of French African intervention. Nigeria is not a minor power, anymore, and South Africa has some real ability to project reasonably modern forces well north. Neither is as strong as France, by any means, but France operates in Africa on a shoestring. It can't sustain operations against any sort of strong opposition by real militaries. The world is a very different place, today, than it was as recently as 50 years ago, when projecting power was still a major world hobby. Very few countries can do so, today. America can. China is powerful on it's borders. Japan could be powerful, quickly, if it decided to. India might, in some years, but isn't, today. Europe is at a low ebb. Russia can't project power. It would have trouble defending the Rodina, at least before some major defeats. I suspect this state of affairs will not last, but that's what the world looks like, right now.
 
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french stratege    BSL :RE:France is a relatively weak military power.   6/27/2005 8:46:08 AM
Bsl: I agree that France is in a low ebb if you compare its conventional strengh to the most capable military in world.In preWW2 France did have considerable capabilities with an impressing navy which was half of US while its army was much stronguer. Today France has roughly 20% of US air land battle power and less than 10% in navy. However France has a modern projection capability which is improving while its military budget stay low: -Introduction of a second carrier, -Introduction of 21 new frigates (Horizon and fremms) with cruise missiles -Introduction of 50 ATF air transport scheduled and improvement of air tanker capacities. This would extend to more than 2000 tons transported in a single lift on 2500 miles vs 1250 tons today using purely miliatry airlift. While we rely more on civilian means than British to transport a force at strategic level, we compensate by having a world base network where we can stack our force before projecting them on theater. Even US use seaship to transport the bulk of their forces.Moreover we are closer to potential theaters in Africa or around India ocean. We can rely on 12 C747 cargos from air france (plus other civilian kets for personnel )and 6 AN124 from Ukraine rented under states agrement, adding 1700 tons in a single lift on 8000 km. On sealift we can mobilize more than 50 ships (cargo/ro-ro/ferries/LPD) mostly civilian (but prepared). So we could transport more than 300 000 tons per month to our really base to build up. Such an effort would be done ONLY if we have to make a Falkland like intervention or a major operation ALONE (for exemple to recover an oversea territory invaded or to hit a state which has attacked us). Use of civilian means would alter our civilian operations, so we would not do that in a NATO coalition war where US/NATO means are supposed to help for transport. In this case our commitment is already defined: 60 000 men on ground troops plus 180 combat aircraft including navy, which is supposed to be enough to play a major role in a NATO coalition (since UK can not do more). Then our maximum strengh in case of a war alone, would be more than 400 aircrafts, and a 200 000 men force.Enought to destroy a air-land force like Syria or Egypt today. Syria can have 3000 obsolete T55/62/72, it is not a problem for our current forces. Tanks numbers are not the only measure of an army efficiency and our doctrine rely on fast motorized elite infantery backed by air superiority and strong antitank means under a efficient C4ISR ALREADY digital. Think for example about our efficiency of our artillery in antitank role: 500 modern 155 mm guns with digital C4ISR (350 selfproperlled guns: AUF1/2 and CAESAR soon), 4000 bonus SMART shells (2 IR top attack submunition/shell), and Orchidée helos able to track 2000 vehicules in a 200 miles radius (eqivalent of ASTOR).A total of 215 Tiger helos planned. We can not do today a WW2 Normandy style landing in force.But German did not have these capacities, neither japanese and it did not prevent them to send forces in North Africa, Creta or Burma. Our nuclear forces are backed by efficient second strike capabilities and world wide class startegic reconnaissance using satellites, ships, planes and 30 ground ELINT stations spreaded in the world.We would use them at tactical/semistrategic level if we are attacked by a country backed by a major power (even nuclear) and if our overseas territories are at stake. Our first strike capbility is enough to destroy 300 hardened targets and retain a reprisal capability if ennemy dare to attack our towns. This possibility can not be discarded by any country. Our navy is strong enought to give a lesson on sea to any country except US, Russia (in open ocean since we would dominate in med and black sea) and UK which are unlikely potential opponents. On Africa we have several bases (Dakar, Abidjan, Libreville, N'Djamena, Bangui, Djibouti plus Comore and La Réunion Islands in Indian ocean, plus Kergelen and Saint Paul in south). In Americas, Guyanna and antillas (plus Saint Pierre and Clipperton), in Pacific, New Caledonia, Tahiti or Wallis/Futuna. Even a strong opponent (except US) could not take all of these before we can reinforce. We have a strong war potential based on indigeneous military industry currently at low rate of production.But still 2 fighter lines , 2 armored vehicules lines, 6 shipyards and a strong civilian aero and automotive industry.We have indigeneous design for all style of weapons we would need.Only US, Russia and UK in a less extent can claim such a capability (China produce obsolete weapons in most case, japan or Germany do not have indigeneous design for all weapons and to design and produce a first rate weapon need years or a decade) France is surely in a low ebb, but all major powers (except US) are weaker or not stronguer. We fear no threat in Europe, are sanctuarized on metropolitan territory, and can scale up in a rate currently on
 
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crashnburn    RE:BSL :France is a relatively weak military power./FS   6/27/2005 10:44:37 AM
Hey FS, When is it that the second carrier will be finished...2012??? I am unsure with the financial concerns of France, if they can afford a buildup of which you speak of. I believe France to be stronger than some give them credit for, however .. the problems would be if they are in time consuming, high casualty conflict far from home. This would be a logisitial nightmare. Politics would ugly. I would agree with most of what you said, being at sea, you would be fine as long as the carrier wasn't lost.(De Gaulle) No backup plan. Crash
 
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