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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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gixxxerking    RE:France is no superpower - A really long post!!!   5/13/2005 1:37:47 PM
"second what on earth makes you think the british needed american PERMISSION to go boot the argies out of the falklands?" --Ehran Do you honestly think they could have did it without US approval? They didnt. "first why is libya supposed to be a power in determining who controls the canal?" --Ehran Because if FS violates their territory as he suggest. Lybia is on the flank of the main French SLOC. France is already stretched beyond its logistical limit to do this operation. TO have to divert resources to protect this flank would make success even more unlikely. You wouldnt want a Mig-25 suddenly and unexpectedly waxing one of your AWACS or Tankers. Do you see it now?
 
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Ehran    RE:France is no superpower - A really long post!!!   5/13/2005 1:42:02 PM
approval and permission are muchly different things. i see your logic regarding libya. mind you i would worry less about the mig 25 than i would about the libyans paying the local camel corps a bounty on french truck drivers hehe.
 
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gixxxerking    Ehran -the feint he keeps ignoring   5/13/2005 1:43:22 PM
 
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french stratege    retf13   5/13/2005 1:46:33 PM
Egypt will try to improve its defense like Iran today buying on export market.France play diplomacy to negociate with Egypt to get time or Egypt to agree to its conditions (and let Egyptian think invasion maybe not sure) , and isolate Egypt. As Egypt is supposed to be the bad guy (why France would try to invade Egypt if its wasn't the case?), they can not gain a lot of sophisticated weapons. Moreover their financial ressources are limited. The same situation than in Iraq war. France used its good relations to propose embargo at UNO.China and russia or UK are unlikely to sell some (good friends) as US (not its interest and US tend to support democraty camp).More over France is more important than Egypt and one of NATO main member so US will of course stay neutral at least. For example if US is for Egypt and sell weapons, france would retalliate by selling advanced weapons to US ennemies, so US stay neutral at least.Or it is World war 3. France avoid to preemptively hit by building its force out of range as much as possible.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:France is no superpower - A really long post!!!   5/13/2005 1:48:07 PM
"approval and permission are muchly different things." --Ehran Agreed. Im not saying the US would have directly intervened for Argentina. But we could have if that was in our interest. And we could have done so covertly using SSNs. But this is very unrealistic. The real method the US would have used would be its huge political/Economic influence as it did in the Suez Crisis and the United Nations Security Counsel. But the U.K. was wise to secure US support quickly so these were non issues. IIRC the US also supplied some LOGISTICAL support, FS read carefully, to the U.K.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:retf13   5/13/2005 1:58:57 PM
Egypt will try to improve its defense like Iran today buying on export market.France play diplomacy to negociate with Egypt to get time or Egypt to agree to its conditions (and let Egyptian think invasion maybe not sure) , and isolate Egypt. --FS ---Fool Egypt into thinking an invasion is not coming when you mobilize almost your entire armed forces, convert civil aircraft and ships to military purposes assemble CVN task force with amphibs protected by FAF CAP? You are joking right? As Egypt is supposed to be the bad guy (why France would try to invade Egypt if its wasn't the case?), they can not gain a lot of sophisticated weapons. --FS ---You supported Iraq in 2003!!!!!!!!! So much for the bad guy theory. FS incase you havent checked, Egypt already has sophisticated weapons now. Moreover their financial ressources are limited. ---So were the Afghans...lol. You dont read history...lol. The same situation than in Iraq war. France used its good relations to propose embargo at UNO.China and russia or UK are unlikely to sell some (good friends) as US (not its interest and US tend to support democraty camp). ---WTF?? GWB!!! and it is a historical fact that the US would not ALLOW France near the canal. More over France is more important than Egypt and one of NATO main member so US will of course stay neutral at least. ---Unbelievable. FS please stop at once. Do you realize the USA sided with the Soviet Union in the Suez Crisis? For example if US is for Egypt and sell weapons, france would retalliate by selling advanced weapons to US ennemies, so US stay neutral at least.Or it is World war 3. ---WW III? Your weapons arent that good FS. And you are already selling to anybody with enough money. Lets see you weapons get to those nations...lol France avoid to preemptively hit by building its force out of range as much as possible. ---If you are out of range you arent much threat.
 
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gixxxerking    FS try this   5/13/2005 2:00:36 PM
L'égypte essaiera d'améliorer sa défense comme Iran achetant aujourd'hui sur la diplomatie de pièce de du marché.France d'exportation à negociate avec l'Egypte pour obtenir le temps ou l'Egypte pour accepter de ses conditions (et a laissé Egyptien pense l'invasion peut-être pas sûr), et isoler l'Egypte. --FS ---Fool Egypte dans penser une invasion ne vient pas quand vous mobilisez presque vos armées entières, votre converti votre avion et vos bateaux civil aux buts militaires assemblent le groupe de travail de CVN avec amphibs a protégé par la CASQUETTE DE FAF ? Vous plaisantez juste ? Comme l'Egypte est supposée pour être le mauvais gars (pourquoi France essaierait d'envahir l'Egypte si son était le cas pas ?), ils ne peuvent pas gagner beaucoup d'armes sophistiquées. --FS ---You a soutenu Iraq dans 2003!!!!!!! ! Donc beaucoup de pour la mauvaise théorie de gars. FS incase vous havent a vérifié, l'Egypte a déjà des armes sophistiquées maintenant. De plus leur ressources financier est limité. ---So était les Afghans. ..lol. Vous avez mis lisez l'histoire. ..lol. La situation pareille que dans la guerre d'Iraq. La France a utilisé ses bonnes relations pour proposer l'embargo à UNO.CHINE et à russie ou à Royaume-Uni est peu probable de vendre quelques-uns (les bons amis) comme Etats-Unis (pas son intérêt et Etats-Unis ont tendance à soutenir le camp de democraty). ---WTF ? ? GWB ! ! ! et c'est un fait historique que les Etats-Unis ne PERMETTRAIENT pas France près du canal. Plus par-dessus la France est plus important que l'Egypte et un d'OTAN membre principal si Etats-Unis feront de séjour de cours neutre au moins. ---Unbelievable. FS arrête s'il vous plaît tout de suite. Rendez-vous compte l'USA a pris parti avec l'Union Soviétique dans la Crise de Suez ? Par exemple si Etats-Unis sont pour les armes d'Egypte et vente, France ferait retalliate en vendant des armes avancées à Etats-Unis ennemies, donc Etats-Unis restent neutre au moins ou c'est la guerre de Monde 3. ---WW III ? Votre arent d'armes qui bon FS. Et vous vendez déjà n'importe qui avec assez d'argent. Laisse voir que vous les armes obtiennent à ces nations. ..lol La France évite de préemption de frapper en construiant sa force hors de portée le plus possible. ---If vous vous êtes sans gamme arent la beaucoup de menace.
 
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french stratege    gxxx bad faith again?   5/13/2005 2:12:45 PM
http://www.cia.gov/nic/PDF_GIF_research/defensemkts/france.pdf If you have read that you would have seen that France is not selling to anybody but use its weapon production as a diplomatic leverage. We don't sell weapons to North Korea or Iran it seems! And we did not sell weapons to Irak before GW2! If we would have done that, you would have got 10 000 killed at least on he battlefield!Imagine Mistral, potent AT weapons, Bonus shell in Iraqi artillery DU depleted shell in Iraqis T72, Antistealth radar, some AIP SSK, good C4ISR ..inIraqis hands ! WE ONLY REFUSED OUR AGREMENT TO DO A PREMPTIVE WAR on UNO concil since their was no evidence on WMD and we know you were trying to produce false "proofs" . WE WERE BACKED BY RUSSIANS , CHINESE, ANGOLA (minor roating participants at security council) AND SO ON... UNO had decided before, inspections would check WMD presence and the process was to be terminated before powers decide to give "legal" war agrement to US. If you want to do an 'illegal" war (according to UNO rules) it is your problem. Nothing more.
 
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ret13f    RE:gxxx bad faith again?   5/13/2005 2:20:19 PM
okay, let me see if i got this right. Iraq with french weapons would have killed over 10K US. but Egypt with US weapons would not have a chance against france. did i get this right?
 
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french stratege    Egypt again   5/13/2005 2:22:03 PM
Egypt has EXPORT version of sophisticated weapons and limited amount of supplies and modern ammunitions (AIM7 is small number instead of AIM120 , for exemple). What sort of active jammers Egypt have on their F16? Do they have software source codes and tools and skill to modify it and adapt it to a new threat? Do they can cope with our Rafale silver bullet? How can they do global assessment of French battle order? Do they have a skilled and well educated manpower? Do they have digitalized units backed by extensive C4ISR and space assets? Do they have mission preparation and battle computer decisions tools? We will have for sure more losses than US in Iraq in GW2, but we would win even they are 3 times more numerous.We would blind them , turn around, avoiding engagement, disorganised them attrit them at distance before giving the deadly shooting. And as I said no question to fight in all populated areas.Only few to control the country.We are not there to install democracy but to put them on knee.
 
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