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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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ret13f    RE:???--Bluewings   5/9/2005 8:34:43 PM
FS has made this international. So far he has involved Djibouti, Sudan and/or Chad and/or Libya, Nigeria, Greece and Burkino Faso; not to mention a whole bunch of people because you have made both ends of the canal a war zone; not to mention all the other navies that operate in the Med.
 
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Bluewings    RE:To Gixxx   5/9/2005 8:37:59 PM
Quote "You and FS, both French, are the only believers in your cause" Actually , I don 't think so . Quote : "But the fact still stands that France does not have the ability to take on Egypt" Facts ?? What facts ? when , where ? Quote : " And yes bluewings. The HARM is much much faster than Mach 1." Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m / s --> 1225.044 km/h Speed of HARM : 1,216 km/h Actually , HARM is a bit SLOWER than Mach 1 Sir . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:???--Bluewings   5/9/2005 8:40:25 PM
ret13f , ok ... So , what do we do now ? Cheers .
 
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Godofgamblers    ret13f: answer   5/9/2005 8:41:43 PM
i think it was agreed a while back not to involve other countries militarily, since it would open pandora's box. after all, you can argue about established forces, but debating whose forces would be thrown into the mix would be an exercise in rhetorics; the point is whether france is capable of invading and taking egypt. you're right, djibouti, libya, chad, etc have been mentioned, but not militarily. they were mentioned in the context of crossing their territory, waters, etc. FS is not suggesting adding chad's armed forces to his invading force, for example.
 
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Godofgamblers    ground attack   5/9/2005 8:45:29 PM
gentlemen, let's not let this get acrimonious. no need to get personal. someone even accused me of using "non-idiomatic russian". getting too personal! he he why don't we take Bluewings suggestion and move on to the ground assault? my personal view is that egypt looks good on paper, but in fact it is a large sprawling third world army used primarily to quell internal dissent. gixx, do you have the info on its ground forces? can it stop a landing at alexandria? or via chad ? (though it's not agreed that such an attack can take place, but assume it is) maybe you and FS could move on to this. just a suggestion.
 
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Bluewings    RE:ret13f: answer   5/9/2005 8:46:21 PM
Exactly Godofgamblers , especially since France has ALREADY bases there . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:ground attack   5/9/2005 8:49:27 PM
I believe FS said ~I quote : "Unloading: Egypt air force is 80% killed for F16/M2000/F4. Cdg 100 miles away with main transport group. First waves: Airmobile: 80 transport helos, 80 attack (hot 2) 3 marines regiments Airborne: 4 regiments Then Beach: 1 LPH, 5 LSL, 4 LPD, 20 ro-ro ferries with Mistral for air protection. 80 Leclerc, 8 rolands tank SAM, 18 engineer vehicules (mine sweeper, EBG). 2 marines regiments and 8 motorized regiments. Support: 160 CAS sorties (80 from Cdg) plus Rafales CAP for airdefense plus 2 Horizon and 5 Lafayettes and 9 Avisos providing 100 mm artillery (80 13,6 kg shell/minute/gun so 15 tons shells per minute) .Plus 120* 120 mm rifled mortars airlift. 100 combat helos with AT missiles. All our IFV/VAB/VBL float and are directly unloaded form transports ramps (usual practice). VBL is like an armored hummer but amphibious (4 tons). 1200 IFV/ITV(VAB) and 600 VBL unloaded in first hours.50 VAB HOT antitank with thermal cameras. (30 ships stay in Cdg group for follow-on) End of day: Aster30 batteries, 24 Rolands NG, manpads (200), 40 more leclerc, 48 AUF2/1, 16 MRLS. 1056 infantery squads.Each AUF1 can deliver 10/8 bonus shell per minutes (2 smart IR guided top attack antitank bomblet).So up to 480 bonus shell and 960 bomblets/minutes coordinated by Orchidées helos. Or Ogre shells with 32 bomblets. Goals are: -to secure an harbor (Al sallum, Marsa Mathru, Port Said??) or to unload on beach using mexefloats, LSL and cranes. -To establish beach head and prepare for 3 armored/mechanized Egyptian division counter attack BUT WITHOUT AIRSUPPORT as Egyptian air force is almost down. Indeed it remains at this point 680 heavy armored vehicules (AUF1/2, Leclerc, enginners) which don't float and 800 heavy truck which can not be airlifted by helos from ships. These have to be unloaded in next days. PS:These 50 ships are well in what is on our civilian register fleet maintained by French navy for military additional sealift in war time using war transport law." Cheers .
 
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EW3    RE:To BW / HARM   5/9/2005 8:58:45 PM
Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m / s --> 1225.044 km/h Speed of HARM : 1,216 km/h Actually , HARM is a bit SLOWER than Mach 1 Sir . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The AGM-88 HARM is listed as Max. speed: 2280 km/h The AGM-122 Sidearm used on helicopters has a top speed of Mach 2.5 Cheers,
 
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gixxxerking    RE:ret13f: answer   5/9/2005 9:03:27 PM
OK well the US operates out of Djibouti as well so go figure. GoG no I will not move on to the land assualt until it is proven to be possible. For now France cant even make it to the beach due to the huge air threat. I have been fair in all my assesments. I have accepted what is and isnt possible. To even land, the french navy would have to survive. That survivability is in serious question with all logical estimates pointing to it not being able to. SO it is pointless to discuss land invassion until the FN can prove it can survive within 300 miles of Egypt. Land assualt from Chad or Djibouti is simply not possible unless we consider the response of other nations whos territory has been violated. But to answer your question GoG about Egyptian land forces of the top of my head the M1A1 number approx 1000 and the M60 about 2000 IIRC with 1000 or more being to A3 standard. Egytian artillery includes MLRS with guided rockets as well. I will go into more detail if France can actually get on to Egyptian soil which so far after reveiw of the proposed plans cannot. Oh GoG there are some who are unaware of the approximate speed of the HARM. The AGM-45 STRIKE missile had a speed of over Mach 2. The HARM speed is classified but it is faster FYI. I suggest some people please just monitor a read the thread unless they can actually contribute and avoid trolling. Otherwise their post should not be considered in the final evaluation and conclussion. An example of said behavior is saying the AGM-88 only flys at Mach 1. The offender will go nameless.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Fall out - FS   5/9/2005 9:05:50 PM
"Nobody compelled you to take me seriously.It is up to you.But we can invade still Australia using New caledonia as a fixed giant carrier.Agaisnt 75 Rafale and 275 M2000 and 7 AWACs, and armies of 380 000 professional soldiers, you can not do anything with you 100 plane." LOL, for crying out loud, learn to study logistics - not bloody toys. you can't get that amount of gear unmolested to Egypt - let alone New Caledonia.
 
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