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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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ret13f    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/6/2005 8:46:07 PM
well, i'm ready for Italy to reconquer libya. maybe albania too. probably should leave greece alone this time.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/6/2005 8:50:09 PM
Hum ... If I say where they go , you 're going to say "no , I 'am not there" ;-) So let 's say they sweep East to West on a 400nm front ~50nm in between each Ship . Or something like that ... Is that ok ? Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/6/2005 8:52:56 PM
ooops , typo error . Read West to East (and not East to West). Cheers .
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/6/2005 8:56:20 PM
I do not need details. Just approximate start point and destination based on ELINT/SIGINT/HUMINT data that Egypt would normally use to determine this information.
 
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french stratege    Naval issues ended   5/6/2005 11:36:58 PM
Gxxx you are not serious if you think that 4 Romeo subs would have a chance to dammage seriously our fleet, as to think that Egyptian even using 96 F16 has a chance to crush our fleet with 24 Rafales and 3E2C and 800 missiles to protect it.More over it is likely some FAF CAP would help crossing of sicilia straight. Even if Egyptian do that error, they could maybe sink at frigate forward but they would lose half of their F16 so reducing F16 number to defend Egypt to 110/120 knowing that 10% of totat F16 fleet is in maintenance. Then nothing would impeach us to stab them in the back from Djibouti.Moreover they would have no Harpoon available after this attempt to defend their coast. After CdG cross sicilia straight , it will go near Grece to cruise in Agean sea out of range of F16 attack, until the time we choose to attack.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/7/2005 12:09:24 AM
Ok . As I said we sweep West to East . Surface Ships stay out of the range of a possible Air Raid , the 4 Rubis Class Subs are combined free-lancers . Subs will check around Cyprus too . Or something like that ... Cheers .
 
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Shooter    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/7/2005 12:37:35 AM
Just a few corrections; ">Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world,<" Not quite right! According to the world fact book; By gross domestic product, The true potential of any Nations power! 1. The rest of the US @ 7378 (10,990 total) 2. Japan @ 3582 3. Germany @2271 4. California @ 1891 5. Texas @ 1701 6. Great Britan @ 1666 7. France @ 1661 By Per Capita Income, the true test of a nation's citizen's opportunity and potential wealth! The top bunch only. 1. US at 40,100 2. Canada @ 31,500 3. UK @ 29,600 4. Japan @ 29,400 5. France @ 28,700 6. Germany @ 27,550 As any one can see from the above current figures France is at best in seventh place ecconomicly that is. Just a little toung in cheek that is. ">War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20.<" Just a little correction here too! US:1600 Russia:~11 Germany: ~8 Japan?: 7 Israel: 6 Great britan: 6 France: ~5? Using the Hubbard Method computations. I know this will rub some fur the wrong way but it IS the truth. ">Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US<" The network may be second, but their influance is hardly felt at all. By National influance; 1. US 2. England 3. Japan 4. Germany 5. Russia 6. China 7. Canada 8. France~MABY? All the rest? ">Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation.<" Last time I looked, Russia and the Ukrain were both in Europe and they have more and better space launch facilities than France. ">We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier.<" Of course there are many items of power that France dose not make or makes poorly, like tanks, submarines and airplanes. ">Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage.<" Japan, Russian and Israely technology isn't bad either. ">Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate.<" Every body sends people to everybody elses schools that will let them in just to find out what they think. As an aside, more French officers (53) came to America to study last year than others who whent to France (37) in the last three years. ">Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels).<" France is only the second country after Iraq to use Weapons of Mass Murder since WW-II? ">Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have:<" You have to be kidding, RIGHT? French Subs are almost as loud as Ruski boats and you think the French Navy actualy has a chance at power projection? It is the details that matter and France has a habbit of making things that look good on paper but who's exicution is substandard. Think of Rafale as the prime example; It is to small to do the typical mission on internal fuel, so it caries three drop tanks. The radar dish is too small to find semi-stealthy targets at all and regular targets at decent range. The small size also dictates small missiles in the A-A arena. All in all a decidedly substandard effort.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/7/2005 2:53:35 AM
Ok then BW here it goes. The Submarine fight will be 4 Rubis vs 2 Moray and 4 Romeo. Considering the littoral environment I would say the SSKs woudl have a fair chance here. Who knows what would happen except that no matter what happens you would never know if there are more out there. And the SSKs will kill some of your Ships and SSN, but only after you fire first unless a HVT is spotted. Using ELINT Aircraft and E-2C, the location of your Sub hunting group will be established from standoff range. The EW aircraft are of coarse escorted by F-16 at all times. You say that you will stay out of range of Egyptian aircraft. You must mean F-4/16 and Migs because TU-16 could bomb Toulon from Egypt. Below is you hunting party which you say leads the CdG group by 150 NM: http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/30-46250.asp 2) Hunting Party in the Med : - 4 Rubis Class Subs : Améthyste, Casabianca, Emeraude and Rubis - 3 ASW Frigates : D641 Dupleix , D642 Montcalm , D643 Jean de Vienne - 5 ASW AVISO Class : F781 Estienne d'Orves , F782 Amyot d'Inville , F783 Drogou , F784 Detroyat , F785 Jean Moulin . They are very strong in ASW but weak in AAW. Below are links to the Missiles used by these ships for air defence: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/crotale/specs.html http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mistral/specs.html There are some CIWS 20mm and 100mm as well. I specifically asked for the composition of your group which is listed above. 8 surface ships represent a significant SAG. As this ASW SAG moves to a position 150 NM to 200 NM west of Crete, I will attack it where it is obviously vulnerable. By Air. 16 Badgers will sortie and fire the AS-5, which is old but supersonic and ARM capable, at the group. The AAW weapons of that group have a maximum range of 11km and max altitude of approx 20000ft. So the missiles, 32 of them, will arrive in mass. Add to this a flight of 8 F-16 with HARM missiles and an escort of 8 Sparrow and AIM-9 armed F-16***. on standby will be the rest of the Egyptian Air Force*** which can scramble if need be. There strike will be watched by an E-2C. due to the range of the weapons used it will not be possible for the French to return fire on the planes themselves. The result of this would most likely be, 4 to 8 French ships destroyed and between 400 and 1100 dead French Sailors. Such a victory would be likely to prevent France from conducting futher offensive operations for fear of SSKs and terrible casualties. FYI- AS-5 will cover 11km in about 20 to 25 seconds. AGM-88 will do that in 15 seconds. So there is really very little chance to surive this attack for the vessels mentioned. If you do not come as close as the distances I mention, Egypt will not initiate hostilities. But unless you come much closer than that, there is little harm the FN could do to Egypt. Either way, mission accomplished.
 
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Bluewings    RE:How rank France in world power? Shooter   5/7/2005 9:03:58 AM
Shooter , most sensible posters here knows you are a D**khead , sorry , a LYING D**khead . Get your little propagande by the hand on france.com where you 'll found plenty of your kind . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:How rank France in world power? Shooter   5/7/2005 9:05:22 AM
That should read F**kfrance .com . (bloody censorship) Cheers .
 
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