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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Part 2-1   5/3/2005 5:24:50 PM
"You only forgot that NON harpoon missile are uneffective(Tu 16 are joke), that CdG will move near Creta just before attack (we launch first), that we have 128 aster missile or maybe 176 is the third Horizon available , plus 390 crotale NG and numerous Mistral, and that we have E2C, SSN, Frigates ,Supertendard AM39, and Rafale to make a counter attack senseless using F16 or boat, after Egyptian lost 50% of F16 in first French attack .Not to mention they don't have our naval skills and equipment quality (sonar).Moreover I have seen they ordered only 32 harpoons.There is 500 miles away from Egypt.It seems you loose ground to come back with such arguments. Come Back to important points." --FS FS you dont get to tell me when to attack. I will attack pre-emptively if it is tactically prudent. WHEN my intelligence indicates the CdG moves to Crete the fight is on. What nonsense is this that you think we would allow you to get everything just right before attacking. FS you win wars before the shooting starts. Thats why Egyptian contigency which I stated much earlier would be to ATTACK if you closed to Crete with CdG, major amphibion or Ro/Ro. But Egypt can wait for you to launch planes and then launch and have 1 hour prior to your arrival due to survaillance. I see Franch only has one Horizon now, two maybe by 2009. So Egypt will order more Harpoon by 2009. FS you want to fight 2005 Egypt with 2009 France. This will not happen my friend except in your mind. And I can trade 100 F-16 to hit CdG. It is worth the price. Also TU-16 are not ineffective. Stop saying nonsense like that if you want to be seriously debated. The TU-16/AS-5 makes up for lack of Tech with numbers. In fact it is intended for you to shoot the AS-5 to empty your VLS. You cant ignore them because to you they are less advanced. Do you suppose they will just crash into the sea? Better target for ARM homers. and in the numbers I mention some will get through. With just 2 Horizon you cannot get them all. And even if you did you exhaust your magazine in time for the slower Harpoon, The MAIN EFFORT, to arrive. Whats left after that can deal with Rocket pods, bombs and guns from MIG-21. Also the Torpedo attacks. The difference between you and I is my counter attack has redundancy built in to ensure mission accomplishment. You strike depends on Egypt getting caught asleep AND EVERYTHING going just right with your attack. Tell me, what will you do if the CdG is hit and either Sunk or unable to launch and recover aircraft? OR what if the Ro/Ro is hit and sunk? What if a Horizon is damaged and can no longer fore missiles? If any of this happens and you are near Crete you will be Fooked! I know you cant respond because you dont even consider this possible because you think France so so superior when I have shown your vulnerability. So now what do you do? Surely you dont think you will not suffer casualties to this attack? I remeber you there are 200+ imbound missile and aircraft vs 128 Aster 30/15. Even if every Aster hits a target more than 70 missiles and planes get through to the fleet! Just say you dont have the ability to force yourself on Egypt. There is no shame in acknowledging the truth.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Part 2-1   5/3/2005 5:40:54 PM
"Surprise yes as main wave is not comming close to Egypt, while our spearhead of quite stealthy 20 Rafales is destroying E2C undetected until the last hundred mile (they use computized terrain masking and low RCS plus Spectra), escorting F16 are exploding under unoticed mica IR (or EW), and key assets coming under radar coverage.When the stealthy scalp are launched, Egypt had not even noticed they are under attack.When the pilots scrambled to their F16, runway are exploding under Apache bomblet, radar are blinded by Carbone pods, burned by EMP or destroyed by Scalp or Armat, shelters start to explose in the coming minutes under AASM attack. 20 Egyptian bases holding F16 or E2C are under fire." --FS I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Rafale is being watched on the ground by HUMINT just as Extremely stealthy F-117 before flying over Kosovo. And Rafales are carrying external tanks and weapons. Did you choose to just ignore the fact that Egypt has long range 3D US radar and Hawkeye 2000? You planes are detected well in advance. If you had a common border then you may have a chance but your flight is 1000 nm long and against AWACs and state of the art GCI. C'mon FS be realistic. This is turning fast into nonsense. You will have to find ano way to achieve suprise because you do not posses the stealth capability to just simply fly in like the US could.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Bluewings   5/3/2005 6:05:05 PM
Quote : " You are a jealous little girl. Give me any thread and I will win due to good generalship. If you disagree then play an OPFOR vs Me and take your turn. May the best man win. But that assumes the competition is among men and not boys or in your case women because all you do is add silly insults and degrading comments." -Gixxx To start with , I am not a little girl . Jealous of you ?? You give yourself far too much credit . In fact you are full of yourself . Good Generalship ? based on what ? Posts in an open forum ? So , all a woman can do according to you is adding degrading comments and using silly insults ? You are not only full of yourself , you are stupid too . And now , the "plat de resistance" . I quote you again : "May the best man win" So , this is what you think it is all about ? Wrong . It is not FS vs Gixxx , but France vs Egypt . And here lies YOUR problem Gixxx . You are "brave" to play OPFOR , but because you are so full of yourself , you cannot even understand the real World . First , we trained Egyptians Pilots . They are the same breed than Irakis when they came to France to train on Mirage : Poor and useless . And THEY KNOW what French pilots can do . The most likely scenario would be 50% of Egyptian Pilots fleeing to any neighbour Country with their Aircrafts as the Irakis did in GW1 . THAT 'S the real World . You have 100 times more guts in front of your keyboard than the Egyptian Pilot sat in his F-16 going after French Pilots on Rafale , Gixxx . Think about it ... Things are not equals Sir . Cheers .
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Bluewings   5/3/2005 6:58:45 PM
Have you ever seen someone bayonetted before? I suggest you not question my courage and stick to the debate topic. Also I know Arab Officers and Men who would gladly kill any attacker. Only keyboard warriors such as yourself question Arab courage. Those of us who have had the opportunity to deal with them in battle know this is a bad stereotype more appropriate to you. The Arabs who fled to Iran in GW1 were wise to do so and ONLY did so due to the US being present. You would think that with your French heritage, you would have much more respect for those who chose to retreat considering your recent military history. You are in no position to question Arab courage as a Frenchman. No if you dont mind FS and I were doing fine debating before you polluted the thread with your typical ignorance and childishness. Please sit back and learn and enjoy the ride since you are obviously no help to your countrymen FS and of great annoyance to me. P.S. FS the references to the past are not directed at you. 1000 apologies for any offense.
 
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TXAggie93    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/3/2005 7:20:45 PM
I do not see france being able to do a landing they would need to stage their gear in a neiboring country. Plus I think any type of french naval loses and war over. Then I do not think france has the abilty to supply troops more than 5 to 10 miles from a caputered port. france would need more carries and heavy lift capablities. On the EMP bomb as a electrical engineer I do not think that it would be all that effective since most moderen millitary equipment has more than adquit EMI sheilding. Even civilian gear such as telecom gear has enough sheilding to survive a pretty good size EMP bomb. Plus new electronic boards are a lot more robust than the old CMOS boards that would fry if you looked at them wrong. The Egyptian military is a lot better trained than most in the region and would not be as inept as some people think they would be. FS what would you do with the Egyptain in france that are still could go after french infrastructure in france? How many amphibious landings has france done in its past. Its probably the hardest military operation to pull off. Plus right now your oder of battle has no deseption to tie down troops in other places. You need a much bigger Navy to pull this off FS.
 
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gixxxerking    gix to FS   5/3/2005 8:12:55 PM
Nothing I say is a reflection on French skill. I just say that you dont have the physical means to carry this out. The plan is too ambitious between now and 2009. And beyond that date we can not predict the military status of either France or Egypt accurately enough to decide. So for now invasion of Egypt is most definately not possible for France. I think we both know this now. I think we all know this by now.
 
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Godofgamblers    bluewings/gixx   5/3/2005 8:14:39 PM
come, come gentlemen. let's not ruin an otherwise excellent thread that we've all enjoyed immensely, no matter what side we're on. shake hands!
 
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Godofgamblers    TXAggie   5/3/2005 8:24:54 PM
TXaggie, to keep the argument rolling, allow me to modestly attempt to address your concerns: "I do not see france being able to do a landing they would need to stage their gear in a neiboring country." if france attacks from the Mediterranean, it can use corsica and toulon as a staging base. the attacks from djibouti will be feintes to tie up egyptian airpower attack quality egyptian military assets. "Plus I think any type of french naval loses and war over. Then I do not think france has the abilty to supply troops more than 5 to 10 miles from a caputered port. france would need more carries and heavy lift capablities." i disagree. all the french have to do is hold alexandria and operate from there. they can be supplied by sea and air. The Egyptian military is a lot better trained than most in the region and would not be as inept as some people think they would be. Perhaps... but perhaps not. i would like to generate an incident over the weekend to test that hypothesis, but unfortunately, it is beyond the scope of my power:) FS what would you do with the Egyptain in france that are still could go after french infrastructure in france? let's leave that out of the equation. we could equally argue that the totalitarian mubarek regime would fall or that the Muslim Brotherhood would seize the opportunity to pull a coup d'etat, or form a fifth column (due to a prior power sharing agreement having been made with france). but perhaps we should agree to keep this on a military level and not a theoretical political one: too many unknowns. Plus right now your oder of battle has no deseption to tie down troops in other places. You need a much bigger Navy to pull this off FS. i suggest a decoy landing force coming up to El Suiz (Suez) supported by Djibouti aviation. regards GoG
 
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Bluewings    RE:Bluewings   5/3/2005 8:27:46 PM
I never questionned your courage Gixxx . Where did I say that ?? What I said is a Egyptian Pilot has far more to fear than you in front of your keyboard . I was questioning the Egyptian pilots , not you . And yes , they would be wise to flee as some Irakis did . They flew with French Pilots and they know what they are up against . ********************************** Gixxx , I jump on you because you dare saying things like , I quote : "You would think that with your French heritage, you would have much more respect for those who chose to retreat considering your recent military history" The French NEVER retreated with theirs tails between theirs legs . If you speak about WW2 , we did not retreat , we 've been soundly beaten . But we kept fighting . Nam and Korea ? Yes I do remember Dien Bien Phu and I am still waiting to see another Force in this World who can archive what we did . That defeat tells everything about French fighting spirit . If you are a Marine , go there : http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/ , and spend few minutes reading what really happened and the lost of human life in heroic manner of the two sides . Then you go , I quote again : "You are in no position to question Arab courage as a Frenchman" ??? Would you dare to explain yourself ? The you finish by , I quote again : "No if you dont mind FS and I were doing fine debating before you polluted the thread with your typical ignorance and childishness" People around me do not see me as ignorant and childish , and if you want me to stop "polluting" (?) the thread , you 'll better start insulting ME , rather than the entire French people . I like American People but you are a D**Khead . Cheers .
 
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Nappy    France IS NOT a world power.   5/3/2005 8:28:21 PM
France WAS a world power until 1890, then slowly thithered off into a third rate power by 1939. You can list all the F982-D654 ABCDEFG military equipment all you want, frankly France CAN'T produce all that stuff to the degree it will matter relative to the big three US,China, Russia and lack the political will to actually use any of it. I mean look at the Balkan wars! The U.S. had to send it's forces halfway around the world to take care of an EUROPEAN PROBLEM. France needs to wake up and realize that it's just a small country capable of maybe "messing around" in some very minor power country or possibly a large settlement of roaming elephants. To be blatantly honest, France is like an old prize fighter who is way beyond it's time. The U.S. just whispers sweet words into it and tells it that it's "still cool", because it doesn't want France to hurt itself or do something stupid. Thats all...
 
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