Ranking the Best Special Forces from NON-NATO Countries

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Subject: Ranking the Best Special Forces from NON-NATO Countries
ChaosEnforcer 1/31/2005 2:38:45 AM

We all know about the Great Special Forces from NATO based countries such as USA's Navy Seals and Delta Forces, British SAS, German GSG-9, French GIGN, Israeli Flotilla 13 Naval Commandos etc. But What about Special Forces from Non-NATO countries. Specifically these countries: China India Indonesia Brazil Pakistan Russia Nigeria Japan Philippines Vietnam Egypt Turkey Iran Thailand South Korea Ukraine Burma South Africa Colombia Argentina Saudi Arabia Malaysia Taiwan Singapore Australia What I want to know is, where would you rank each country based on its Special Forces. My Ranking would be something like this: Russia Australia Turkey Pakistan Japan South Korea Singapore India Thailand China Taiwan Ukraine Egypt Colombia Argentina Malaysia Iran South Africa Saudi Arabia Vietnam Burma Philippines Indonesia Brazil Nigeria What do you guys think?

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dba Others far behind? 8/6/2007 1:14:15 PM

To 5thGuards
"Others far behind."? I have to disagree.

I may be biased but can't agree to that.
I just googled and found out this: 'During the 2005-06 financial year the Australian Army had an average strength of 25,241 permanent Personnel and 15,579 reservists.'

First let me make it clear that I don't approve North Korea. I hate them and pity the people suffering under NK regime.
Consider South and North Korean armies.
Let me share about North Korean special forces. In 1997 (?) a North Korean minisub got stuck off South Korean coastline. The sub was discovered by a passing cab driver and a huge manhunt began.
It's believed that the sub was extracting/inserting North Korean agent when it got stuck. What I'm going to talk about is not the special forces but the crew of the minisub. I remember reading in Korean newspaper at that time about the bodies of sub crew members found near the stranded sub. What really struck me was description of the scene. The bodies (17 ?) of the crew members were in a line and everyone had been shot in the head. It looked like the crew members had lined up and waited for a gunshot to their head. They were not tied or anything like that from what I read.

Basically the crew members had failed their mission and they had nothing more to offer for the mission, not to mention the danger that they might give up top secret of North Korean forces. So, either the crew members killed themselves or the special force guys (3 or 4 tried to trek back to North Korea and it's presumed 1 got back) did. All of the crew members had lined up and WAITED to be shot in the head one by one. Idealogy? Fear for safety of family? Brainwashed? Who knows? But you have to agree NK special op & support guys are extremely well trained/motivated.

When you consider North Korea has 100,000 Army Special forces (special forces, not Regular Army) and the support troops (minisub crew etc), I don't think you can say 'others are far behind'.

One more thing about North Korean special forces/spies. If you watched the Korean movie "Shiri (Swiri)", in one of the flashbacks by the North Korean spy, you will catch a deadly brawl in a warehouse. What the scene shows is a training session of North Korean spies. North Korean spies/Special Force (probably spies) are put in a house and than a group of North Korean political prisoners are pushed into the room. And a brawl breaks out where trainees and prisoners fight hand-to-hand (or using what ever one can find such as brick etc) until all of the prisoners are DEAD. Purpose of this training is to get the spies familiar with blood/gore and toughen them up. I believe this scene was created based on testimonies of North Korean defectors.

And you have to remember that South Korean army/special ops are preparing/prepared to counter North Korean army/special ops.

Is the rating of Special Forces on this thread based on training, toughness, equipment, number of troops, past achievement? I think North/South Korean special ops are just as good or maybe even better than aussies special ops on most of those. I know aussies were great troops in WW2 and Vietnam and got great press, but I don't think you can say others are far behind, not with South and North Korea armies. There just isn't enough coverage of South and North Korean armies in western media/press in English so people are not well informed re S. and N. Korean special ops.

If Australian special ops and South/North Korean special ops faced off each other, I'd choose South/North Korea special ops.

IMHO

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5thGuards 8/6/2007 2:39:41 PM

This is the thing , we are not comparing strenght of active special forces , we are taking into consideration , willingness , prepareness , toughness , skill and multirole of special forces , and I belive that Aussie special forces are better in more terms than North Korean , allthough North Korean Special Forces are known to have strong and hard training and discipline yet they lack in alot of aspects comparing them to aussie special forces , and take into consideration they have been very active lately ( Iraq , Afganistan , East Timor )

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AdvanceAustralia dba 8/6/2007 3:29:02 PM

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Daemonicus223 8/7/2007 2:20:06 AM

I admit I'm new here so I don't know the ropes. But I've been poking around and have seen tons of rank X and rate Y threads. Its amusing how these things are debated but this one is truly out there. Special Operations Forces by nature defy ranking. The skill sets that fall under SOFs are too broad and SOF units are country, region, and task specific.

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AdvanceAustralia Spot on 8/7/2007 3:28:00 AM

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dba 5thGuard 8/7/2007 1:07:44 PM

Most of the stories I gave were about N. Korea and I didn't talk much about S. Korea. S. Korea has troops to counter N. Korea, the #, $ (equipment) & have been active in Iraq recently. My point is that you cannot say others are far behind aussies when you have South and North Korea to consider.

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dba 8/7/2007 1:26:39 PM

Based on the "evidence" you present IMHO I think you agree wholeheartedly with 5thGuards. Russia, Australia then daylight.

"I just googled and found out this: 'During the 2005-06 financial year the Australian Army had an average strength of 25,241 permanent Personnel and 15,579 reservists.'"

Please enlighten us as to the relevance of this information.
It's relevant because in # of Special ops troops available N. Korea is far higher than aussies. Same goes with S. Korea. # of troops isn't the only criteria to consider in 'ranking' special ops but it has to be taken into consideration right? Hence you can't dismiss special ops of N. and S. Korea so easily.

"But you have to agree NK special op & support guys are extremely well trained/motivated."

How is the lack of initiative amongst a submarine crew evidence that the DPRK's spec ops are well trained ot motivated? If that crew was well trained or motivated they would have blended into the ROK countryside and put themselves into a position to cause havoc when the opportunity arises, not laid down and died like a bunch of girls.
One may say the sub crews died like a bunch of girls. But you obviously don't know the situation on the ground. The special ops guys on the sub were armed/trained to survive and try to make it back to the N. Korea. But the sub crew members WERE NOT. You cannot expect a regular North Korean to be dropped off in the middle of S. Korea and expect to not get noticed. N. Koreans don't know how to use the bus system, cabs, make calls, etc etc in S. Korea. N. Koreans on the sub knews the sub crew didn't have a chance of not getting caught. Even 1 getting caught and eventually giving up secrets was a risk they didn't want to take. The sub crew had to die to help secrets secret OR had to pay price for their failure. I brought the minisub crew story just to illustrate how fanatical/loyal the N. Korea special ops AND their support guys are. You are in a line of 17 people and each is being shot one by one and you will be next... Stupid? Tragic? But that takes guts, in a weird sense, but it is.

"...a brawl breaks out where trainees and prisoners fight hand-to-hand (or using what ever one can find such as brick etc) until all of the prisoners are DEAD. Purpose of this training is to get the spies familiar with blood/gore and toughen them up."

That is sick. That is not spec ops training. That is the training of bullies and cowards reminiscent of Hitler's Brownshirts or the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army of WWII in Asia which did nothing positive for Japan's reputation. Beating helpless civilians until they are dead is not a characteristic of a true spec ops operator. Beating helpless civilians until they are dead does not toughen up anybody - it just makes them a murderer.
Yeah, that wasn't a good example but I was just trying to show the N. Korea special ops guys go through ruthelss/inhumane training. And in the movie, the political prisoners, young military/middle age males don't simply get beaten up. The prisoners were selected because they were considered able to resist and enhance the training for the trainees. They fight back viciously and some of the special ops trainees are killed in the brawl. My point was their training is extreme, in a different sense from western world but it is extreme. AND S. Korean special ops go through training to counter this. Follows western methods but just as extreme to counter N. Korea.

IMHO, I don't think you have a clue as to what constitutes a good spec ops force.
IMHO, you don't know S. & N. Korean special ops that well same as 5thGuard and hence easily dismiss them. But I having seen/read about both Korean and western special ops, I'd go with S./N. special ops guys. I admit that I havne't been in military and respect the sacrifice.
I stand by my statement that N./S. special ops guys are just as good/better than aussies.

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dba to 5thguard 8/7/2007 1:58:02 PM

In response to 5thGuard:
This is the thing , we are not comparing strenght of active special forces , we are taking into consideration , willingness , prepareness , toughness , skill and multirole of special forces , and I belive that Aussie special forces are better in more terms than North Korean , allthough North Korean Special Forces are known to have strong and hard training and discipline yet they lack in alot of aspects comparing them to aussie special forces , and take into consideration they have been very active lately ( Iraq , Afganistan , East Timor )

Here's how I'd grade the special ops of SK, NK, and aussies. IMHO.
A = 5
B = 4
C = 3

                        SK | NK | aussies
Willingness = A     |   A | B
Preparedness = A | A    |     B
Toughness =    A     |   A |   A
Skill =               A |   A    |   A
multirole =      A      |    B    |   A
Total =           25   |    24   |   23

Note:
SK & NK are technically still at war. Not much more to get one prepared.
How many minisubs does aussies have? NK has them special ops insertion/extraction. NK may not have chopper support.

Of course each nation's special ops is geared for different mission, terrain etc but if you had to 'rank' them, that's how I'd grade/rank them.

If you insist on saying NK doesn't have the $/equipment, than consider SK has the troops/training & $/equipment to counter NK special ops.

You really cannot say 'others far behind' aussies.

IMHO.

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5thGuards 8/7/2007 3:06:30 PM

Agree that South Korea has overall most suited special forces as NK , but from my information NK is less capable than Aussie special forces , and if its not far behind Aussie special forces then it certainly is far behind Spetznas / VDV.

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AdvanceAustralia dba 8/7/2007 3:23:57 PM

Based on the "evidence" you present IMHO I think you agree wholeheartedly with 5thGuards. Russia, Australia then daylight.

"I just googled and found
out this: 'During the 2005-06 financial year the Australian Army had
an average strength of 25,241 permanent Personnel and 15,579
reservists.'"

Please enlighten us as to the relevance of this information.
It's relevant because in # of Special ops troops available N. Korea is far higher than aussies. Same goes with S. Korea. # of troops isn't the only criteria to consider in 'ranking' special ops but it has to be taken into consideration right? Hence you can't dismiss special ops of N. and S. Korea so easily.

You have not explained the relevance of this information. Australian soldiers are far better educated, have far better nutrition and have a far better training tradition available to them than "soldiers" of the DPRK. They are all professional volunteers. Almost all Australian infantry have potential for special operations training. The patrolling ability of most Australian "grunts" is as good as that of many special forces around the world.

"But you have to agree NK special op & support guys are extremely well trained/motivated."

How
is the lack of initiative amongst a submarine crew evidence that the
DPRK's spec ops are well trained ot motivated? If that crew was well
trained or motivated they would have blended into the ROK countryside
and put themselves into a position to cause havoc when the opportunity
arises, not laid down and died like a bunch of girls.
One may say the sub crews died like a bunch of girls. But you obviously don't know the situation on the ground. The special ops guys on the sub were armed/trained to survive and try to make it back to the N. Korea. But the sub crew members WERE NOT. You cannot expect a regular North Korean to be dropped off in the middle of S. Korea and expect to not get noticed. N. Koreans don't know how to use the bus system, cabs, make calls, etc etc in S. Korea. N. Koreans on the sub knews the sub crew didn't have a chance of not getting caught. Even 1 getting caught and eventually giving up secrets was a risk they didn't want to take. The sub crew had to die to help secrets secret OR had to pay price for their failure. I brought the minisub crew story just to illustrate how fanatical/loyal the N. Korea special ops AND their support guys are. You are in a line of 17 people and each is being shot one by one and you will be next... Stupid? Tragic? But that takes guts, in a weird sense, but it is.

Were the sub crews not "support guys", as you called them? They obviously lack the right training to deal with the kind of contingencies their role inevitably faces. I doubt very much the average NORK sub crewman has any secrets to tell.

"...a brawl breaks out where
trainees and prisoners fight hand-to-hand (or using what ever one can
find such as brick etc) until all of the prisoners are DEAD. Purpose
of this training is to get the spies familiar with blood/gore and
toughen them up."

That
is sick. That is not spec ops training. That is the training of bullies
and cowards reminiscent of Hitler's Brownshirts or the actions of the
Imperial Japanese Army of WWII in Asia which did nothing positive for
Japan's reputation. Beating helpless civilians until they are dead is
not a characteristic of a true spec ops operator. Beating helpless
civilians until they are dead does not toughen up anybody - it just
makes them a murderer.
Yeah, that wasn't a good example but I was just trying to show the N. Korea special ops guys go through ruthelss/inhumane training. And in the movie, the political prisoners, young military/middle age males don't simply get beaten up. The prisoners were selected because they were considered able to resist and enhance the training for the trainees. They fight back viciously and some of the special ops trainees are killed in the brawl.

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