one thing i find really weird, and i think westerners would find weird too, is that every time i speak to an indian about gandhi they rip him apart completely. 'gandhi bashing' is apparently very fashionable. i don't get it. funny that gandhi might be more popular abroad than in his own country!

"The same accomplishments of China today are a liability in terms of doctrination of infantry" That is quite incorrect, propaganda and indoctrination have historically been an excellent way for nations to motivate their own troops and to demoralize their enemies. If this wasn't an effective means, why are all the major militaries of the world still using propaganda and indotrination? Even the U.S army systematically breaks down the individuality of it's green recruits until almost every shred of a soldier's perceived self worth is tied to his accomplishment in the army. Any nation without well indoctrinated soldiers would be at an inherent disadvantage. "Less than 50% of Chinese are rural today, while 70% of Indians are rural." Unless there was something akin to WWIII, I don't think either nation would commit such large portions of it's male population to warfare. And while I agree that farm boys and ranchers are on average better than city dewellers at fighting, the decisive factors in these kind of wars is still highly motivated, drilled infantry, experienced NCOs, and high-level commanders with strategic foresight. China, despite it's lower Agrarian population, has those software components in place. India still needs to establish it. That means in practical terms, extended service time and more indoctrination for it's soldiers. Higher salaries to attract and retain good NCOs. And most importantly, separating the decision making process of the political leadership away from the military leadership during wartime. "Almost every knowladgeable poster here will agree that, barring extraordinary difference in equipment, the nation that can put up the most number of tough village boys will win the foot war. Period." No, training and organization along with technology makes the most difference. Sheer numbers alone cannot win a war. Vietnam was a case in point, China used vast waves of ill-trained conscripts in the inital invasion and lost tens of thousands. A couple of years later, using good tactics and experienced NCOs, comparitively small groups of troops managed to attacked and defeat much larger contigents of Vietnamese troops with low casualties to boot. Another example would be the Indian army in the Kargil conflict, perfect example of poor training+lack of field level leadership. And to make it worse, the war was being directed from New Delhi rather than in the field. But then I guess that's the case with almost every war that India has fought.

I respect the man and I will never achieve 0.1% of his greatness. But the question is that was Gandhi good for independent India? Or was he a liability? Individual greatness / goodness does not translate to making a new independent nation strong and secure. I blame Gandhi directly for 1962 humiliation at the hands of Chinese. It was his handpicked leader of free India, Nehru and Nehru's incompetent team that caused the defeat. Gandhi did so many illogical and irrational things, that makes me wanna throw up! Majority of young Indians, especially those born after the 1970 do respect Gandhi, but that's where it ends. No one will follow his irrelevant path.

I have no time to educate you. Go through the following links. Indians have freedom of speech, unlike the Chinese propoganda machine. Indians have admitted that 1962 was a mistake and have learnt from it. Go through these links and you will find that all you claims are false propoganda. The 1962 War Details and Self Critique: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1962War/index.html http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images-1962.html Official Armed Forces Site: http://www.armedforces.nic.in/ Unofficial but very informative independent site: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ Get a life man and get over 1962 and your lies. BTW, you do not know anything about Kargil...

Geeez, I was pointing some practical inadequacies with your country's army. And what do I get in return? Insults being hurled at me. As for Kargil, I read about what happend there as well as Jane's analysis of the conflict. Do you think 1000+ Indian army casualties and failure to capture a single mountain bunker network is a sign of a competent army? And remember, this mountain was on your own territory no less, the enemy combatents were actually cut off from re-supply. Moreover the bunker was finally destroyed by the Indian airforce rather than the army,and that was after weeks of political indecision and petty squabbling in New Delhi.

Your statement below shows that you know nothing about the 50 Day War in Kargil. So you are a freakin' moron and you deserve to be called that. Coz u are. " Do you think 1000+ Indian army casualties and failure to capture a single mountain bunker network is a sign of a competent army? And remember, this mountain was on your own territory no less, the enemy combatents were actually cut off from re-supply. Moreover the bunker was finally destroyed by the Indian airforce rather than the army,and that was after weeks of political indecision and petty squabbling in New Delhi. " Go through this link. The pictures were not shot in a film studio! The stories are real and were reported by independent media as the Kargil war happened. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1999War/index.html

Sysops: I am not a person who loses his cool and calls someone a moron or a 3r. Please go through this moron HanWuDi's posts. He does not write racial stuff, but he does write everything but the truth. Please ban this 3r from this forum. Cheers.

I read through that link of yours on BR forum. Now first of all, I never questioned the individual bravery of the Indian soldier. But if you read your war stories closely, you'll realize that they closely mirror the Jane's report. The Indian troops clearly suffer from: A. Lack of proper equipment/training in mountain warfare B. Lack of effective NCO leadership though their high level officers were brave enough C. Political indifference/indecision back in the capitol First of all, Indian intelligence failed in accurately assessing the troop strength of the combatents on the mountain. The troops themselves didn't have the adequate training training and tried to assault the mountain base with light infantry without artillery support, naturally those guys were cut to pieces. In one section this company-level commander, Major Rajesh Adhikari, led his troops up a ridge where they were outnumbered, despite obviously knowing then they were out-numbered on the way up. He of course "heroically" died along with most of his men, and the assualt FAILED. Your link is replete with such stories of heroic failures. I found one to be especially amusing. "Unable to convince his superiors of the need to delay till adequate firepower was provided the second in command of the 18th Grenadiers Lt. Col. Vishwanathan personally led the attack. With Regimental pride under stake the men reached the top after an arduous 6 hour climb. If they chose to recover before attacking dawn would be on them so they made the choice of an immediate attack. It was a suicidal attack and was promptly cut down. Lt. Col. Vishwanathan knew he was going to die. His last letter to his father indicated his anguish at not being able to live to his family commitments." What kind of an idiot is this guy? Marching his troops to exhaustion and then leading a suicidal attack merely for pride? Now don't get me wrong, I respect courage and sacrifice. But the point is to acheive something with those personal sacrifices. If you send good men to die, at least there should be a reasonable chance that your tactical objectives would be achieved by that sacrifice. Sacrifice merely for the point of pride or not retreating is a foolish waste of life. War isn't about pride or honor, it's about decisively capturing the strategic objectives that necessitated the war in the first placed and ending the violence as soon as possible on your terms. Those heroic commanders and their polititians simply had no clue.

Excellent point HanWuDi. The whole Kargil War humiliated the Indian Army. I am Pakistani, and the objective that we wanted was to gain a strategic foothold on the Kargil area so that the Indian base on the Saichin Glacier would be cut off from Supply and India would be forced to abandon it. The total force was about 150 Pakistani SSG (Special Services Group) Special Forces armed with assault rifles, shoulder fired missiles, land mines and other light provisions. There were also 250 to 300 Pakistani Kashmiri Militants along with 500 Indian Kashmiri Fighters. So, they were lightly armed. The objective of the thrust was to hold those passes and force India into a negotiation posture over some areas in the LOC. India launches a disastarous campaign to recapture the hills. Totally underestimating the determination, they lose many soliders in the fight. In fact, 1 Pakistani SSG commando machine gunned 50 Indian Soldiers before being killed. India even recommended Pakistan to give him a medal. In any case, Indian forces like the Russian Army in Chechenya is a slow moving golaith which is not designed for up-tempo warfare like Kargil. The Nato Armies, the Israeli and the USA armies are, but the Chinese, Indian or the Russian Army are not. Since they require so much logistical support to move and that requires so many men. In any case, we withstood their attacks, shooting down a few Migs in the process while they lost over 500 Soldiers. They finally decided to call USA to bail them out. It was at this point that the war was reaching a critical point. As the indian forces trapped in the Saichin Glacier Base had only 3 weeks of supplies left and Indian forces uptil now had been unable to break through the hills. USA forced pakistan to withdraw its fighters from Kargil and finally India could re-take the hills. India didnt win the war in Kargil, we just left, but we can return.

"India didnt win the war in Kargil, we just left, but we can return" Hmm.. interesting, if u guys JUST LEFT, then how come indian soldiers got bodies of pakis after the kargil war?