The armed forces of India whats so special?

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Subject: The armed forces of India whats so special?
JTR~~ 6/7/2010 3:05:23 PM

Throughout these discussion boards i have found many, many references to the armed forces of India, and their apparent excellence. This may be the case but from what i am able to gather they are quite possibly the worst of today’s modern powers. i realise that i may be wrong which i why i have posted this query, my question is this, What qualities make the Indian armed forces worthy of holding the title of one of the best today? i have come across many examples where people have created top ten lists, and have ranked India above many western powers. i think that this is wrong, however this is my personal belief, which is why i am asking my question. i do not know too much about the Indian armed forces in their current state, i do however base my opinion of a few things that i do know. The most critical factor that is keeping India low in the rankings for me is this simple fact, logistics, form what i can gather the armed forces of India are quite possibly the world’s worst logistical nightmare; the huge variation in weapons that they field is unfeasible. How can such an army try and effectively field troops in such a way, prolonged engagements would be a dream that they could never achieve. i have done a little research into the various weapons fielded by the Indian forces and the mind boggles at the choice of arms, domestic weapons, Russian weapons, America weapons, British weapons, German weapons etc, the list goes on. One thing that i find quite amusing is the Indian navy; it is in the same situation as the Indian army in the fact that it has many ships, most of which have been purchased second hand from a consortium of countries after the original owners no longer need them. The Indian armed forces are using the western worlds outdated waste, it is to my understanding that the Indian navy recently purchased (or will be acquiring) the Royal navies invincible class carriers, they are effectively buying their old junk. These second hand outdated pieces of equipment are surely more of a hindrance to the Indian forces more than a help my second point, is it is simply impossible to train such large numbers of troops to a universally high standard, which means that many of the Indian troops while I’m sure they are capable, are just no up to the standard of many other nations, particularly those with lower troops numbers. There are several other points, but on these I am reluctant to comment as i feel i know to little to make any form of reasonable judgement, I realise that my opinions and points made may be unfounded and or wrong, but I’m willing to learn hence my question. Hopefully this will now help me to gain a little further insight into people opinion regarding the Indian armed forces Regards JTR~~

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injun 7/29/2010 1:15:58 PM

Where's the comparison between the military in India and those in the western world?

The terrain, threats and operations faced by India's armed forces are entirely different from those faced by the US or by European nations, and no parallel can be drawn.

For example, it may have served the cause of national defence for the USA or the USSR to have a hundred nuclear submarines across the world during the height of the Cold War, but nuclear submarines are irrelevant to the Indian Army's struggle to contain Jihadi terrorism in Kashmir. It may serve strategic interests for a European nation to have a Navy that is capable of operating independantly thousands of miles from home shores. For the Indian navy, whose immediate threats are the neighbouring coasts of Pakistan and a Chinese naval base in Myanmar, such far reaching blue water technologies are overkills. America may need to have an army that is capable of occupying a hostile nation far from home with minimum casualties. India on the other hand can do precious little with such capabilities... it is not looking to intervene in Sub-saharan Africa or elsewhere: it would rather focus on having an army that can delay a Chinese advance into the Himalayas and consolidate a rigid defence of the plains. Likewise, China may need to have an ICBM that can reach Los Angeles, whereas India - having built up a modest battery of guided missiles capable of striking the Hunan province and a few (probably) capable of striking Beijing - has focused more on building heavy lifting capabilities into its navy to help out in times of natural disasters like the 2006 tsunami.

True, it takes decades to build capabilities into your armed forces, while it may take barely hours for geo-political scenarios to alter. Which is why India is trying very hard to build up the capabilities that are still the preserve of economically advanced western nations - and all this in the face of immense domestic opposition to what is largely perceived as a waste of precious financial resources. The recent announcement by the Indian government of its intentions to purchase a fleet of diesel submarines was reported in the local press with an emphasis on the fact that the budget allocated for this purchase equalled more than the entire national primary education budget.

India is not the USA. Its not the UK or France. Its not even China. But for the mandate, terrain and threat within which it operates, the Indian army has coped remarkably well and deserves full marks for it.

Right on dude! I for one never understood the importance of "far projection" capabilities. Why go far if you only need to defend your home? Where is the wisdom in keeping forces for invading a far off country when your most obvious concerns are just over the border? Defence forces are meant to be just that - 'defence forces' aren't they?

But put that down to my Indian heritage and outlook of 'trouble no one unless he troubles you first'. When the new crop of youngsters come about my kid siblings will undoubtedly speak of "projection" too.

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Panther 7/29/2010 4:39:51 PM

Where's the comparison between the military in India and those in the western world?

The terrain, threats and operations faced by India's armed forces are entirely different from those faced by the US or by European nations, and no parallel can be drawn.

Because for a few select states in the world, the realization that their interests such as in trade and the lives of their citizens in foreign lands depend on their home government being there when the s#!t hits the fan. I guess we could put it this way, the more globalized a state is the more it needs or has come to depend upon having a force projection capability.

To be as helpfully nice about this as i possibly can, minus a treaty with a more powerful foreign state, who outside of India takes their rights seriously?

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:23:35 AM

... the world?s worst logistical nightmare; the huge variation in weapons that they field is unfeasible.

That's because they have a boner for their 'neutral alignment' 'faction'. It makes them chronically indecisive.

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:35:09 AM

There are no fair fights. Ralph Peters has said that India has a great mid-20th century military while Pakistan has a great early 20th century military. There is no scenario in which they would be pitted against a networked foe. They can't really fight China unless you consider dudes using small arms at 15,000 feet and watching ballistic missiles pass overhead a war. Are they a player in the Indian Ocean? Yes. Can they thump Pakisatan? Yes.

Very enlightening (I did not know that was where the two approximately lay).

Folks, I am an Indian and there are a few unpartial facts I will bring to the fore. Firstly, India is one of the few countries left in the world where America and Americans are greatly admired. Right from science and industry to education to military, we are in total awe of how America has built itself. We strive to be like them and take measures to get our population out of poverty. Having said this, your university professor of Indian origin seems to be demented and doesnt speak for all Indians. Unlike China, we consider America as an indespensible ally no matter what the geo-political situation.

- Wonderful foreword. If only more were like this (and I'm half-Chinese ^^).

Now on the military front, India is a balanced power. Indegineuous research is the biggest drawback in India due to bureaucratic hurdles. It's true that the Indian Army is the 4tht largest in the world and size could mean comprormize on quality, however it is one of the most disciplined, professional and trained organization in the country.

- That's good but doesn't say very much.

We are upgrading our weapons fleet with the latest (150 billion USD deal for next geneatiton fighter aircrafts is underway.). The variety of weapons from multiple sources is a way to hedge our risk of high dependency on one supplier in a fast changing world. India is slowly moving away from soviet weaponry however since its own reasearch programs are very slow, it depends a lot on imports. The supply can be compromised in times of conflict if the dependancy is on one supplier. The Navy has evolved itself into a true blue water navy with reach as far off as Indonesia from our coastline. True, that recent ships that India has purchased are junk, but that is a non-expensive stop-gap arrangement while the indigeneous ships roll-out. The Navy has all-indian-made frigates and destroyers. The russian aircraft carier Gorshkov is a temporary fittment while the naval dockyard produce India;s own next geneation aircraft carrier in 2014. The Navy is amongst the most advanced of the 3 forces for indegineous development.

- You're definitely overdoing the hedging. Just go American with a mix of European arms to balance it. And I'd say the Gorshkov is in many ways a partially failed stopgap measure by now.

The army is working on a concept soldier called "soldier as a system" which will enable its soldier to be prepared for modern warfare at par with the best in the world. Indian army already has started raising battallions on this line and it will take a

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:37:14 AM

I'd add military hegemony too... but applied indirectly.

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:39:30 AM

i am pleased that you have realised that size often compromises quality, this is true of all forces number more than a couple of hundred thousand men and definitely no more than 300,000, it does not matter their size of your support structure or your budget it even applies to the US armed forces (although some would not like to admit it, ha-ha http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" />) but in saying this the US armed forces are the most powerful in today?s age as they have achieved a near perfect balance.

It is theoretically possible. These numbers were much lower in the past.

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:50:08 AM

Let me address our reply in 2 parts:

On India getting ahead of US and UK in techcnological terms: Like you rightly pointed out, that despite India making great progress, it still playing the catch-up game. I dont see us bettering the technological research of US and UK in the next few decades. However considering we were late starters with the first 50 years focus mostly on Pakistan, we have leap-frogged into the elite club working on 5th generation military technologies. Realitically, India is looking more at collaboration and techcnological help from US and UK than competition. No prizes for guessing that we will not receive the bleeding-edge techcnologies from either countries, however that catapults us to a step behind US and UK from where we are today.

As a country, we are not prepared for something spectacular in military investments. Our doctrine is completely based on the threat perception at hand, in a defensive posture from hostile neighbors (Jihad and Maoism being the most notable exports from our neighbourhood). With the rising economic might, there are few other priorities that the nation faces (education, poverty, jobs, infrastructure and internal security) and this will continue to guide our defence spendings. What I see is 2 decades of focus on these developments and then the attention shifting to being a world leader in military technology. Till then our attempt will mostly be to try and keep pace with the best. That will effectively address our threat perception.

India being a sponge for the west: It indeed is. We share the same democratic values and similar ideologies that makes the west hated so much with the extremists. However our dismal internal security apparatus combined with corruption makes us a soft target for these elements. They can pass on the same message to the world without much sweat in executing an attack. Unfortunatley JTR, India cant choose its neighbours.

-Praveen

What you're facing is Neo-Autocratic one-party fascism with communist trappings, not maoism. An efficient system that cares for most of its inhabitants, if immoral to those outside its borders.

At any rate, you're mostly realistic, but you're dreaming that India is truly working on futuristic technologies. I agree India is trying. China is merely trying too if that helps your feelings.

It will be two to four decades before China lands on Mars to announce its competition with Western technology. I can see this happening in India in forty to a hundred years.

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:53:23 AM

Then again the loss of the space-related knowledge and experience of the grand Apollo program which so enchanced Western technology could make the argument China (like some Indian scientists too) is competing with the Western cream... but my points is its not on a grand scale.

Another point the West may lose on is fusion as more and more funding is put into it in China. However I have faith America will wake up when its realized we're close by, even or leaving them behind in any sector.

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:57:08 AM

THUS INDIAN ARM FORCES ARE RANKED ABOVE MANY OTHER FORCES IN THE WORLD.

(I hope this will give you better under standing of Indian arm forces).

Another education in how to gaze upon one's own navel and marvel in its brilliance and the dirtiness of others (whether real or not in all cases).

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cwDeici 7/30/2010 12:58:51 AM

2.LIKE U.S A IN AFGHANISTAN IN 1980S.

Well, I have to apologize. I misread this a bit. This is still wrong, but not half as bad as what I thought was criticism of recent war efforts.

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