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Subject: France global reach is world second now
french stratege    8/8/2009 4:54:41 AM
US readers may have difficulties to consider that but only France has a 100% independant global reach after USA.And far below USA, granted.
 
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Le Zookeeper    In 10 years- 2019   8/8/2009 5:03:38 AM
INdia wll easily be #2 with 3 aircraft carrier groups, and about 10 nuclear submarines, air to air refueling and , transport aircraft. China will soon come up but because no aircraft carrier it has to wait. France is still powerful but shortly will be eclipsed by India and China. I think France has 5to 6 years left as #2.
 
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french stratege       8/8/2009 5:04:05 AM
France is the only one country after USA which have together:
A 100% independant modern nuclear strike capability AND a 100% independant  space surveillance and global ELINT system AND a carrier group with global reach AND ability to project a 50 000 men air land battle force to help an ally AND ability to massively scale up like in world wars with indigeneous build modern weapons.
 
Demonstration:
Standard load of a Rafale is 6 to 8 AASM.We have 2 pilots per Rafale and we can assume 2 to 3 sorties per day per pilots.
CdG can deliver 100 to 110 Rafale sorties per day at maximum and assuming 70 are for strike it means we can deliver 420 stand off precision guided bomb per day like AASM (50 km range) , or almost 3000 in a week.Or with all sorties to strike, 660  or almost 5000 in a week.
Limiting number of a carrier is due to its landing track and movement on the bridge.Normally CdG is scheduled for 100 sorties per days officially but with 3 squadrons we can assume a number up to 150 in a surge.US carriers have reached 200 sorties per days but they can sustain them more since they have more planes and pilots.
 
Some US reader wrote:
The problem is that with a single carrier France's capability is generally either way too much, or way too little. 
It is overkill for small scale police actions... a handful of harriers would be more than sufficient for that... but it is far too little to deal with a major flare-up somewhere.
An handfull of Harrier is good for a minor operation assuming no air decent air threat.They are also short range which means the carrier has to get close to the coast.
Rafale M is today a first class BVR air defense fighter with only really F22 is really much better.
Rafale M can cope with any SU30 of the latest generation like only India have and easily dominate a standard export Mig 29 on a third world country.
Rafale M is buddy refueled and accept also any common stock of air force and navy weapons lile Mica, AASM, Laser guided bomb (soon) , SCALP, AM39 or nuclear hypersonic ASMP-A with 500 km range and 300 Kt.
Now we have 3 E2C which are force multipliers with datalink.
On ennemies:
Very few air forces have SU30 MKI equivalent in numbers, with AWACs to support them, and a decent number of air refuelers.Very few air forces can mount long range massive strikes with an hundred fighters with antiships missiles.Very few air forces have NATO level pilots with sufficient spares to sustain hing rate sorties numbers.
Now take also in account that France have ground air bases around the world on french territories to complement CdG
 
How much forces can cope with it outside NATO and get air superiority against CdG?
 
Russia have SSN in numbers so we would never risk CdG in northern Atlantic.But we don't need it to strike Russia.
CdG power alone excess any air force in central and south America including Brasil
CdG power alone excess any air force in Africa except Algeria and Egypt but we are in range for our ground based air force
In Mediterranean, CdG alone excess Syrian air force for air combat power assuming our ground based air force do the air to gorund job (Syria is far away and need 3 hours of flight with air refueling from Corsica)
 
In Indian Ocean CdG alone excess all countries in air superiority power including Iran and Pakistan, except Saudi Arabia and UAE (french allies), India , Singapore and Australia (french allies).
Against Iran and Pakistan we can add our ground based air force either based in Djibouti (with air refueling) or even UAE (with agreement of UAE) or even in Mayotte (while limited to very long range ground based Rafale strikes with SCALPS or on their coast.
Against Iran or Pakistan we can send of their inside capital city some SCALPS or ASMP or pound their coast with hundreds or thousands AASM, 100 or 200 miles inside.Their navies would be 100% destroyed.
 
In Pacific CdG power excess all countries in air superiority power  except South Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan.
Only China is seen as a potential threat to France (or North Korea we could hit easily by air or even nuke).
It would be mad to come close to Chinese coast.
However, in blue sea well behind Taiwan France can expec
 
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FJV    humbug   8/8/2009 6:41:58 AM
This guy posts "France global reach is world second now", but worries about Germany starting WW3.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emcrook.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
I don't see any Germans posting stuff on or gloating over their global reach.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/face16.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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Herald12345    Now FJV........   8/8/2009 6:53:52 AM

This guy posts "France global reach is world second now", but worries about Germany starting WW3.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emcrook.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" />

 

I don't see any Germans posting stuff on or gloating over their global reach.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/face16.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" />







From another "Rafale" thread Source.
=================================================================
french stratege       8/8/2009 4:36:08 AM
Rufus
I wrote and corrected before my message, indeed I wrote:
Sorry I forgot to correct my message
CdG can deliver 100 to 110 Rafale sorties per day at maximum and assuming 70 are for strike it means we can deliver 420 stand off precision guided bomb per day like AASM (50 km range) , or almost 3000 in a week.Or with all sorties to strike, 660  or almost 5000 in a week.
 
Standard load of a Rafale is 6 to 8 AASM.We have 2 pilots per Rafale and we can assume 2 to 3 sorties per day per pilots.
Limiting number of a carrier is due to its landing track and movement on the bridge.Normally CdG is scheduled for 100 sorties per days officially but with 3 squadrons we can assume a number up to 150 in a surge.US carriers have reached 200 sorties per days but they can sustain them more since they have more planes and pilots.
 
You wrote:
The problem is that with a single carrier France's capability is generally either way too much, or way too little. 
It is overkill for small scale police actions... a handful of harriers would be more than sufficient for that... but it is far too little to deal with a major flare-up somewhere.
An handfull of Harrier is good for a minor operation assuming no air decent air threat.They are also short range which means the carrier has to get close to the coast.
Rafale M is today a first class BVR air defense fighter with only really F22 better.
Rafale M can cope with any SU30 of the latest generation like only India have and easily dominate a standard export Mig 29 on a third world country.
Rafale M is buddy refueled and accept also any common stock of air force and navy weapons lile Mica, AASM, Laser guided bomb (soon) , SCALP, AM39 or nuclear hypersonic ASMP-A with 500 km range and 300 Kt.
Now we have 3 E2C which are force multipliers with datalink.
On ennemies:
Very few air forces have SU30 MKI equivalent in numbers, with AWACs to support them, and a decent number of air refuelers.Very few air forces can mount long range massive strikes with an hundred fighters with antiships missiles.Very few air forces have NATO level pilots with sufficient spares to sustain hing rate sorties numbers.
Now take also in account that France have ground air bases around the world on french territories to complement C
 
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french stratege       8/8/2009 12:08:07 PM
Herald, I'm fed up with your trolling since I can not qualify by an other word your miserable conduct
 
Indeed I wrote in my former message:
CdG can deliver 100 to 110 Rafale sorties per day at maximum and assuming 70 are for strike it means we can deliver 420 stand off precision guided bomb per day like AASM (50 km range) , or almost 3000 in a week.Or with all sorties to strike, 660  or almost 5000 in a week.
It is not 3000 sorties in a week but 3000 bombs delivered which is not the same since Rafale can carry a warload of 6 to 10 AASM in a single sortie.
I said 700 sorties.
Moreover carriers are be replenished at sea (UNREP) and it is a normal practice.US refueled their carriers up to each 3 days in fuel and amunitions and we have 4 polyvalent ships (oil+amunitions+other stuff)
If you want to bash me, do it on facts.
 
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JFKY    Honestly,   8/8/2009 12:17:37 PM
beyond the fact that Herald doesn't like FS, why is there any debate about this?  It's true, undeniably.  It's not relevant how much bunkerage or ammunition CdG carries....as the ONLY CVN not held by the USN, the CdG is the SECOND best attack force in the world, and the MN can provide AAW, ASuW escorts, as well as SSN's and Unrep support.
 
Herald, please stop fighting it's true....The CdG may ONLY hold 500 tonnes of ammunition, but that's 500 tons MORE than nay other nation can deliver via CVN, save the USN.
 
Bottom-Line: the French have the second best power projection force in the world, a CVBG and Amphibious warfare group...it may be far less than the USN's, but it exceeds anyone else's...Sorry India, PRC, and RN fans.  Though one poster made a good point that India and mayhap later the PRC will surpass France in a decade or so.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    France   8/8/2009 12:23:52 PM
France has a respectable military that is able to defend it's territory and extend those protections in the naval environs independently for short distances (few thousand kilometers), for a short time (as long as their fuel and ammo bunkerages hold out). Good for France'. As has been demonstrated on these pages even an all out war with a hostile in the Mediterranean neighbor would severely tax their assetts and they have no experience in large scale projection since they lost Viet Nam & got run off of the Suez canal by more serious powers. Sending a few thousand Legionares to peace keeping duty (where the results can be seriously questioned...) does not compare true force projection of the Former Soviet Union or the current USA.
 
I hear their wine is good though....
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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french stratege       8/8/2009 12:36:51 PM
Soviet Union have never projected power outside their immediate boundaries.
France have logistic relay bases in Africa, South america or Indian ocean,  and shipment to project its army by sea for heavy forces like everybody including USA does.
 
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Herald12345    Submarines and aircraft.   8/8/2009 2:20:32 PM

beyond the fact that Herald doesn't like FS, why is there any debate about this?  It's true, undeniably.  It's not relevant how much bunkerage or ammunition CdG carries....as the ONLY CVN not held by the USN, the CdG is the SECOND best attack force in the world, and the MN can provide AAW, ASuW escorts, as well as SSN's and Unrep support.

 

Herald, please stop fighting it's true....The CdG may ONLY hold 500 tonnes of ammunition, but that's 500 tons MORE than nay other nation can deliver via CVN, save the USN.

 

Bottom-Line: the French have the second best power projection force in the world, a CVBG and Amphibious warfare group...it may be far less than the USN's, but it exceeds anyone else's...Sorry India, PRC, and RN fans.  Though one poster made a good point that India and mayhap later the PRC will surpass France in a decade or so.

Russia and BRITAIN have more credible power projection credibility with their strike platforms. And MORE survivable un the face of an enemy like Brazil, JFKY. The two examples are actually patrolling with a viable threat presence. The CdG is a floating target with little to no onion to protect her aside from her own onboard planes and missiles. With Squall, MICA, and ASTER? ROTFLMAO. At least the Hawkeyes and Etandards work.
 
An aircraft carrier has to have bodyguards and it has to be able to DODGE. The Chuckles has and can do neither.
 
As for that presenter of falsehoods, no power projection means  when I say that, exactly that-no credible power projection. . The French have no serious fleet trains and NO serious airpower outside metro France. Cote D'Ivoire was about all they could handle a few years ago, and they didn't hanbdle it at all well. Its called  logistics. .
 
Herald
.  
 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    French projections....   8/8/2009 2:29:43 PM

Soviet Union have never projected power outside their immediate boundaries.

France have logistic relay bases in Africa, South America or Indian ocean,  and shipment to project its army by sea for heavy forces like everybody including USA does.


Could France take back French Guiana today if it was seized by Venezuela or Brazil? As I recall the CDG is in dry dock getting an overhaul and upgrades. What will they project with? Of course they can use their nukes but that would mean Pakistan and Israel are "projecting powers". For the record, the Soviets had a pretty substantial naval logistical force before their fall. It was certainly larger than France's is now.

 
Again, no offense to France which has a good military mix and size for its strategic and tactical requirements but it is designed to protect, not project. Or at least, not project as a solo power but rather project in conjuction with the USA , UK,  & NATO support.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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