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Subject:
France global reach is world second now
french stratege
8/8/2009 4:54:41 AM
US readers may have difficulties to consider that but only France has a 100% independant global reach after USA.And far below USA, granted.
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Godofgamblers
8/12/2009 12:11:29 AM
Perhaps you are all missing the point though; it doesn't seem to matter how many destroyers or CVNs you have nowadays. These weapons are from the last war (though it is said Gernerals are always fighting the last war). We are living in the geodesic age. Things such as education, warfare, business, etc all are along geodesic lines. It used to be that a prole like myself could not educate himself without the approval of some glowering Cambridge don but in our age, one can educate himself or herself via the internet on any subject. The same for business: i don't need capital, education or approval from the elite to do business: just an internet connection.
Warfare has gone the same way, for what is 'assymetric warfare' but geodesic warfare? The individual waging war on his own. With all its might the US has so far failed to subdue Afghanistan and Iraq even though the latter have no battaliions, logistics, satellites, etc. France has the ability to humiliate, devastate, bombard Brazil or 95% of the Third World (or the Majority World as i like to call it) with endless airstrikes from a CVN, but to what end? The economic costs will soon outweigh any benefits, and the populace will resist assymetrically, preventing any real victory.
Ok, everyone can bash me now; I've turned the other cheek so many times I look like a Picasso painting anyway, so slug away:)
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Herald12345
8/12/2009 12:35:46 AM
The 44 rungs to Wargasm is just so much "Pap."
They are convenient measuring sticks, hardly "pap".
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Herald12345
8/12/2009 12:55:49 AM
People - the question is: "Is France's Global Reach sufficient to place it at number 2 on the league tables?"
No. I already showed thisw when I showed source information that they could not sustain a ;light brigade sized armorewd force in Iraq without tagging onto IS sealift and logistics support. The British for example wefre able to ship and supply their own armored division. The French couldm't.
Therefore the
only
sub-questions that are legitimate and germaine to the discussion are:
Logistical
1. What is defined as global reach? (is it a strike mission by SSNs with SLCMs/ SSBNs toting SLBMs/ AdA Rafales launching SCALPs or Exocets etc. or is it the ability to place a Joint Force [incl. Land assets] at significant distance anywhere in the world and continue to supply and support them whilst they conduct meaningful operations in support of a
raison d'etat
?
Additionally
,
is the scenario being informed by
realpolitik
or are we purely considering military capability only?)
Support an expeditionary force. In this case Gayana is presumed in revolt with Brazilian support. The French need to sustain an ar,ed troop presence in colony to hold it. The numbers don't add up.
2. Having defined
what
'Global Reach' entails - which I strongly believe we will all end up agreeing is more than a simple strike option (i.e. ongoing ops will be seen are more important) - What is the suitability or capability of the military of the French Republic to conduct such operations? (i.e what is the limit of the size, capability or operational tempo of forces they are able to field?)
About a reinforced light infantry battalion geared towards African intervention by air.or the same by sea. within 3000 kilometers of Metro France.
3. How does the French Republic compare when rated across the comparable spectrums of other militaries (in whatever class/es of assets that were deemed important) who might like to claim the No. 2 spot?
Britain has at least 2x the lift and at least 4x the sustainment.
AND THAT'S IT!
Discussions of:
A) FS's propensity to value
independence
of capability over actual capability,
You mean his delisions of grandeur as opposed to actual capability?
B) FS's propensity to orgasm over French Technology,
His overerstiomation of a technology that now has to rely on fereign vendor and tech tree sourceing.
C) The Brazilians (in general),
Comparable tech to Southg Afruca or Italy. Not a power to be sneezed at at all. Those people are very technically advanced by Second World standards
.
D) The inopportune location of a French Colony/OS Territory next to a regional military superpower (which only indicates the difficulty of an operation, not the objective capabilities of what the French Military can do - the Americans can logistically sustain an Airborne Corps in Moscow,
but militarily would you? having regard for realpolitik?),
Ask me that one after we lose Afghanistan
Its what we functionally actually are doing, you know.
and E) the absurdity of MAD/Herman Kahn/SSBN options,
It was FS who introduced that subject line when he boasted about French nuclear armaments. All I did was show the stipidity involved in raising a non-issue. He doesn't ujnderstand what that kind of escalation really means. (A Magnitude increase in risk of national extinction for WHAT? Honor?)
are all inappropriate and are not germaine to the discussions. If its relevent, it will relate to one of the three previously outlined and numbered sub-questions for this topic.
Agreed.
Brett.
Herald
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Herald12345
8/12/2009 1:11:43 AM
Just out of interest- could one of the US posters come up with an estimate of the worth of the RN and MN in terms of USN strength. I'd imagine it'd be 1-2 carrier groups plus some submarines and USMC ships each but I'd appreciate an expert opinion.
Variable and not exactly numbers at fingertips, but at least from an
ASW commerce defense standpoint
, maybe add 30%-50% to USN strength? the french bring little to that(10%?) Factor in geography, expertise, and battlespace coverage assets that the RN has as the force multiplier. If you mean in a purely naval tactical battle perspective, then the RN is not as much (15%), since our naval air force is just so much larger,
but
each navy is built to a different requirement. When you add a couple of carriers, to your lineup and add or replace the current generation of AAW/ASW escorts that will add hugely to your tactical battle capability. At a guess, I would say 25% of US capability.
France would bring very little to the table surface wasfare wise, about 5%. Subsuirface is where she shines. Whereas Britian brings easily 30%, the French would add about 20%.
Herald
.
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