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Subject: Why Europe Won't Fight
The Lizard King    4/18/2009 2:08:17 PM
*ttp://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31425 04/10/2009 "No one will say this publicly, but the true fact is we are all talking about our exit strategy from Afghanistan. We are getting out. It may take a couple of years, but we are all looking to get out." Thus did a "senior European diplomat" confide to The New York Times during Obama's trip to Strasbourg. Europe is bailing out on us. Afghanistan is to be America's war. During what the Times called a "fractious meeting," NATO agreed to send 3,000 troops to provide security during the elections and 2,000 to train Afghan police. Thin gruel beside Obama's commitment to double U.S. troop levels to 68,000. Why won't Europe fight? Because Europe sees no threat from Afghanistan and no vital interest in a faraway country where NATO Europeans have not fought since the British Empire folded its tent long ago. Al-Qaida did not attack Europe out of Afghanistan. America was attacked. Because, said Osama bin Laden in his "declaration of war," America was occupying the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia, choking Muslim Iraq to death and providing Israel with the weapons to repress the Palestinians. As Europe has no troops in Saudi Arabia, is exiting Iraq and backs a Palestinian state, Europeans figure they are less likely to be attacked than if they are fighting and killing Muslims in Afghanistan. Madrid and London were targeted for terror attacks, they believe, because Spain and Britain were George W. Bush's strongest allies in Iraq. Britain, with a large Pakistani population, must be especially sensitive to U.S. Predator strikes in Pakistan. Moreover, Europeans have had their fill of war. In World War I alone, France, Germany and Russia each lost far more men killed than we have lost in all our wars put together. British losses in World War I were greater than America's losses, North and South, in the Civil War. Her losses in World War II, from a nation with but a third of our population, were equal to ours. Where America ended that war as a superpower and leader of the Free World, Britain ended it bankrupt, broken, bereft of empire, sinking into socialism. All of Europe's empires are gone. All her great navies are gone. All her million-man armies are history. Her populations are all aging, shrinking and dying, as millions pour in from former colonies in the Third World to repopulate and Islamize the mother countries. Because of Europe's new "diversity," any war fought in a Muslim land will inflame a large segment of Europe's urban population. Finally, NATO Europe knows there is no price to pay for malingering in NATO's war in Afghanistan. Europeans know America will take up the slack and do nothing about their refusal to send combat brigades. For Europeans had us figured out a long time ago. They sense that we need them more than they need us. While NATO provides Europe with a security blanket, it provides America with what she cannot live without: a mission, a cause, a meaning to life. Were the United States, in exasperation, to tell Europe, "We are pulling out of NATO, shutting down our bases and bringing our troops home because we are weary of doing all the heavy lifting, all the fighting and dying for freedom," what would we do after we had departed and come home? What would our foreign policy be? What would be the need for our vaunted military-industrial complex, all those carriers, subs, tanks, and thousands of fighter planes and scores of bombers? What would happen to all the transatlantic conferences on NATO, all the think tanks here and in Europe devoted to allied security issues? After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the withdrawal of the Red Army from Eastern Europe and the breakup of the Soviet Union, NATO's mission was accomplished. As Sen. Richard Lugar said, NATO must "go out of area or out of business." NATO desperately did not want to go out of business. So, NATO went out of area, into Afghanistan. Now, with victory nowhere in sight, NATO is heading home. Will it go out of business? Not likely. Too many rice bowls depend on keeping NATO alive. You don't give up the March of Dimes headquarters and fund-raising machinery just because Drs. Salk and Sabin found a cure for polio. Again, one recalls, in those old World War II movies, the invariable scene where two G.I.s are smoking and talking. "What are you gonna do, Joe, when this is all over?" one would ask. Years ago, we had the answer. Joe stayed in the Army. He couldn't give it up. Soldiering is all he knew. Just like Uncle Sam. We can't give up NATO because, if we do, we would no longer be the "indispensable nation," the leader of the Free World. And, if we're not that, then who are we? And what would we do?
 
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Hugo    Mike, you're wasting my time   4/28/2009 5:13:48 PM


I apologize for the typo, Arian instead of Aryan.  I just probably don't use it as much as you do.


 


Do you remember the break up of Yugoslavia? I distincly remember the Russians involved and they still had enough umph so that when the Serbs called on thier Slav big brother (just like July 28th 1914) the European NATO members said this is a job for NATO as I recall.  Yes Wesley Clark was in charge, the SACEUR.  Since Yugoslavia was neither a member of either the Warsaw Pact or NATO this was very much an out of area operation.  Just like Afghanistan only in Afghanistan a NATO member was directly attacked.  And as you said:


 


" Germany helped enable the peaceful separation of Slovenia and relatively peaceful separation of Croatia"


 


As they say close only counts in horse shoes.  The sweeping aside of the Russian traditional interest with the Serbs is one factor that has led to the resurrection to the recent unpleasantness with the Russians.  The Russians after Dayton did play ball but as I recall there were a few incidents when we almost ended up shooting at one another again; some Airport incident.




I apologize for the typo, Arian instead of Aryan.  I just probably don't use it as much as you do.
 
What are you implying here Mike?  Why would I use the word Aryan more than you?
 
Do you remember the break up of Yugoslavia?


 I remember it pretty well, thankyou.
 
I distincly remember the Russians involved and they still had enough umph so that when the Serbs called on thier Slav big brother (just like July 28th 1914) the European NATO members said this is a job for NATO as I recall.
 
Oh you do do you?  Mike, you're dazed and confused.  The Russians and NATO had nothing to do with the successful independence of Slovenia and Croatia - please desist from commenting on subjects for which you know little to nothing.  And for the record, just like in 1914, the Russians were compeletely impotent as to helping their "brothers" the Serbs.
 
Your recollections are far off the mark - you're confusing Slovenia  and Croatia's independence with the Bosnian and Kosovan conflicts.  You need to go back to the drawing board as regards your basic understanding of these events.  Germany had unified in 1990, do you think this could have happened if they were at loggerheads with Russia over the former's successful intervention in the cause of Slovenia and Croatia at the same time? 
 
I recall there were a few incidents when we almost ended up shooting at one another again; some Airport incident.
 
In future, I would  be very cautious about trusting your recollections under any circumstance
 
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Hugo    Mike, you're wasting my time   4/28/2009 5:26:51 PM

The Germans weren't involved in the Balkans until SFOR, along with the US and many others.

The civil war started when Slovinia broke away after Tito died, their part in the war was minimal ,a matter of mere days. Croatia then stood up it's militia and that's when it all hit the fan. B-Hertz got the shaft from being stuck in the middle. Under UNPROFOR from '92 on till '96/97 and the inception of IFOR/SFOR till this day.  
 
 
  Inaccurate.  Germany were involved in the Balkans as early as 1990, supporting Slovenian and Croatian independence diplomatically and pushing other European nations to recognize that independence.  German foreign ministry efforts were successful at turning that war from one of Belgrade attempts to preserve unity to one of Serbian aggression against independent nations that were tied to the Western camp.  Germany also supplied the Croatians with weapons and training in 1991 which helped them to secede from Serbian control. It was Nato that wasn't involved until later but only well after Slovenia and Croatia had gained independence.  If it wasn't for German efforts those two conflicts would likely have been much bloodier as Bosnia proved later.
 
Incidentally, Tito died over ten years before Slovenian independence.
 
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strat-T21C       4/28/2009 6:26:54 PM




The Germans weren't involved in the Balkans until SFOR, along with the US and many others.



The civil war started when Slovinia broke away after Tito died, their part in the war was minimal ,a matter of mere days. Croatia then stood up it's militia and that's when it all hit the fan. B-Hertz got the shaft from being stuck in the middle. Under UNPROFOR from '92 on till '96/97 and the inception of IFOR/SFOR till this day.  

 


 

  Inaccurate.  Germany were involved in the Balkans as early as 1990, supporting Slovenian and Croatian independence diplomatically and pushing other European nations to recognize that independence.  German foreign ministry efforts were successful at turning that war from one of Belgrade attempts to preserve unity to one of Serbian aggression against independent nations that were tied to the Western camp.  Germany also supplied the Croatians with weapons and training in 1991 which helped them to secede from Serbian control. It was Nato that wasn't involved until later but only well after Slovenia and Croatia had gained independence.  If it wasn't for German efforts those two conflicts would likely have been much bloodier as Bosnia proved later.

** There were more nations supporting sides there than just the Germans; Greeks, US, all sorts of Islamic nations as well. Lots of mercs were used by all sides.
** As for Germans arming and training the Croats, are you sure that someone should be proud of that and what it produced? If they were there in, as you say '90, does that mean that the German gov't was activly seeking to nation break Yugoslavia, didn,t they host the Olympics in '90?

Incidentally, Tito died over ten years before Slovenian independence.

**That is a fact , I meant it in the context to mean that if he was alive, it wouldn't have happened.


 
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Hugo       4/28/2009 7:26:27 PM










The Germans weren't involved in the Balkans until SFOR, along with the US and many others.







The civil war started when Slovinia broke away after Tito died, their part in the war was minimal ,a matter of mere days. Croatia then stood up it's militia and that's when it all hit the fan. B-Hertz got the shaft from being stuck in the middle. Under UNPROFOR from '92 on till '96/97 and the inception of IFOR/SFOR till this day.  



 







 




  Inaccurate.  Germany were involved in the Balkans as early as 1990, supporting Slovenian and Croatian independence diplomatically and pushing other European nations to recognize that independence.  German foreign ministry efforts were successful at turning that war from one of Belgrade attempts to preserve unity to one of Serbian aggression against independent nations that were tied to the Western camp.  Germany also supplied the Croatians with weapons and training in 1991 which helped them to secede from Serbian control. It was Nato that wasn't involved until later but only well after Slovenia and Croatia had gained independence.  If it wasn't for German efforts those two conflicts would likely have been much bloodier as Bosnia proved later.




** There were more nations supporting sides there than just the Germans; Greeks, US, all sorts of Islamic nations as well. Lots of mercs were used by all sides.

** As for Germans arming and training the Croats, are you sure that someone should be proud of that and what it produced? If they were there in, as you say '90, does that mean that the German gov't was activly seeking to nation break Yugoslavia, didn,t they host the Olympics in '90?





Incidentally, Tito died over ten years before Slovenian independence.



**That is a fact , I meant it in the context to mean that if he was alive, it wouldn't have happened.





There were more nations supporting sides there than just the Germans; Greeks, US, all sorts of Islamic nations as well. Lots of mercs were used by all sides.
 
I'm referring to efforts to recognize Croatian independence of which Germany (who led the efforts), Austria and the Vatican were the only initial active supporters.  The United States was not initially warm on Croatian independence.  Yugoslavia was a friend of sorts of the US, UK.
 
As for Germans arming and training the Croats, are you sure that someone should be proud of that and what it produced? If they were there in, as you say '90, does that mean that the German gov't was activly seeking to nation break Yugoslavia, didn,t they host the Olympics in '90?
 
What it produced?  The conflict with Federal Yugoslav forces was short and swift.  If the Croats hadn't been adequately prepared, the conflict might well have been much bloodier e.g. Bosnia.  Germany wasn't seeking to break up Yugoslavia for its own sake, but rather was supportive of Croatian independence which I think most will agree is legitimate.  Sarejevo hosted the Winter Olympics in 84 (I think).  I cannot imagine a better outcome for Slovenia and Croatia given the circumstances of Serbian belligerence.  It was a diplomatic success story for Germany and ultimately for Europe.  I am bewildered by people who question the legitimacy of the pursuit of independence from Comm
 
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Godofgamblers    mike   4/28/2009 9:58:23 PM
I apologize for the typo, Arian instead of Aryan.  I just probably don't use it as much as you do.
 
Totally unwarranted. Hoping you will apologize for this.
 
 
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strat-T21C       4/28/2009 10:35:01 PM






















The Germans weren't involved in the Balkans until SFOR, along with the US and many others.















The civil war started when Slovinia broke away after Tito died, their part in the war was minimal ,a matter of mere days. Croatia then stood up it's militia and that's when it all hit the fan. B-Hertz got the shaft from being stuck in the middle. Under UNPROFOR from '92 on till '96/97 and the inception of IFOR/SFOR till this day.  







 

















 










  Inaccurate.  Germany were involved in the Balkans as early as 1990, supporting Slovenian and Croatian independence diplomatically and pushing other European nations to recognize that independence.  German foreign ministry efforts were successful at turning that war from one of Belgrade attempts to preserve unity to one of Serbian aggression against independent nations that were tied to the Western camp.  Germany also supplied the Croatians with weapons and training in 1991 which helped them to secede from Serbian control. It was Nato that wasn't involved until later but only well after Slovenia and Croatia had gained independence.  If it wasn't for German efforts those two conflicts would likely have been much bloodier as Bosnia proved later.










** There were more nations supporting sides there than just the Germans; Greeks, US, all sorts of Islamic nations as well. Lots of mercs were used by all sides.



** As for Germans arming and training the Croats, are you sure that someone should be proud of that and what it produced? If they were there in, as you say '90, does that mean that the German gov't was activly seeking to nation break Yugoslavia, didn,t they host the Olympics in '90?



 
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Hugo       4/29/2009 3:45:13 AM
 

I'll buy that. The Croats that I met there were very pro-West in their ambitions. As for the Aus/Vatican view, would you say that it was a religious thing being that all 3 are R/C?

 

Absolutely. In fact, in Germany's case, it was actually Bavarian politicians (Bavaria is heavily Catholic and a powerful state in Germany) that were pushing federal politicians in Bonn to support Croatia's case. There is also a historical link between Croatia, Slovenia and Austria from the times of the Hapsburg Empire. Croatia at times has seen itself as the guardian of Western Civilization's south-eastern frontier against Orthodox and Islamic expansion. Croatians have historically found themselves fighting side by side with German speakers (I'm not referring to the Second World War). There are also very sizable Slovenian and Croatian communities in Austria.

 

 

The Olympics, I had thought that they had them or something to that effect in 90-91, wasn't the '84 in Lake Placid? I was not challenging the legitamacy of the independance from communism, it was against what I saw in the aftermath of Operation Sturm in places like Knin, they slaughtered everyone, not just the Serb fighters ( not to say that they were the only ones to do such immoral acts, not at all!)

 

The 1984 Winter Olympics were held in Sarajevo. Summer Olympics were held in 1992 but that was Barcelona. Operation Storm was clearly a solid military success but I have little doubt some atrocities were committed by Croatian forces and the operation led to the displacement of the Serbian populace of Krajina - some Croatian military officials are now on trial in The Hague for alleged crimes against the Serbian minority. This happened a number of years after Croatian independence however. It is worth mentioning that in the lead up to that operation the Croatians were receiving significant technical help as regards training (and I believe weaponry) from the United States whose diplomatic position had changed post-facto Croatian independence and their alliance with the Bosniaks (who were supported by the US).

 

* He was both hated and feared, more feared. There is power in that as is proven all over the globe today. I'd also like to add that if your ever planning a holiday, go to the Dalmation Coast wow! it rocks. Split or Makarska.

 

He was a powerful unifier but I believe the forces for independence were far too strong to be stopped even by him. The collapse of the Soviet Union removed the counterbalance that enabled the continuation of the Yugolsav dictatorship but the movement for Croatian independence was already a powerful force throughout the 1980s. I ought to go to the Dalmatian coast sometime, I've heard it's very nice.

 
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strat-T21C       4/29/2009 12:35:37 PM

 

I'll buy that. The Croats that I met there were very pro-West in their ambitions. As for the Aus/Vatican view, would you say that it was a religious thing being that all 3 are R/C?


 


Absolutely. In fact, in Germany's case, it was actually Bavarian politicians (Bavaria is heavily Catholic and a powerful state in Germany) that were pushing federal politicians in Bonn to support Croatia's case. There is also a historical link between Croatia, Slovenia and Austria from the times of the Hapsburg Empire. Croatia at times has seen itself as the guardian of Western Civilization's south-eastern frontier against Orthodox and Islamic expansion. Croatians have historically found themselves fighting side by side with German speakers (I'm not referring to the Second World War). There are also very sizable Slovenian and Croatian communities in Austria.


 


 


The Olympics, I had thought that they had them or something to that effect in 90-91, wasn't the '84 in Lake Placid? I was not challenging the legitamacy of the independance from communism, it was against what I saw in the aftermath of Operation Sturm in places like Knin, they slaughtered everyone, not just the Serb fighters ( not to say that they were the only ones to do such immoral acts, not at all!)


 


The 1984 Winter Olympics were held in Sarajevo. Summer Olympics were held in 1992 but that was Barcelona. Operation Storm was clearly a solid military success but I have little doubt some atrocities were committed by Croatian forces and the operation led to the displacement of the Serbian populace of Krajina - some Croatian military officials are now on trial in The Hague for alleged crimes against the Serbian minority. This happened a number of years after Croatian independence however. It is worth mentioning that in the lead up to that operation the Croatians were receiving significant technical help as regards training (and I believe weaponry) from the United States whose diplomatic position had changed post-facto Croatian independence and their alliance with the Bosniaks (who were supported by the US).


 +++ US SF was there, up in Tusla and in the interior near Visoko, that's where I did a tour out of in '94


* He was both hated and feared, more feared. There is power in that as is proven all over the globe today. I'd also like to add that if your ever planning a holiday, go to the Dalmation Coast wow! it rocks. Split or Makarska.


 


He was a powerful unifier but I believe the forces for independence were far too strong to be stopped even by him. The collapse of the Soviet Union removed the counterbalance that enabled the continuation of the Yugolsav dictatorship but the movement for Croatian independence was already a powerful force throughout the 1980s. I ought to go to the Dalmatian coast sometime, I've heard it's very nice.




By the way, great discussion with solid knowledge, thanks.
 
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JFKY    NG   4/29/2009 1:40:47 PM
Why would that be relevant...the European allies didn't fight in Kosovo...they may have MiGCAP'd or BARCAP'd but most of the ordnance was delivered by and almost all of the SEAD work was performed by US forces.  I belive the French, for example, delivered fewer than 500 LGB's in the war, far fewer....
 
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JFKY    NGI   4/29/2009 3:30:51 PM
Let me know when proportionally you reach the US level of casualties...I would never wish the ABSOLUTE level, just let me know when your loss rate per 100,000 equals the US'....
 
 
 
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