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Subject: America on verge of giving up globo cop job. New military order on the way.
Necromancer    4/6/2009 3:52:04 PM
Severe defence cuts due to economic situation (F-22 cut, Obama's new copters maybe gone and more) and Obama's new political approach sends a clear message to the allies- Israel is on its own vs Iran (may start WW3, Netanyahu may not be patient forever), Japan will ally with China as US closes bases around the wrld. NATO in deep trouble asEU is nothing more than a token prescence. I fully expect US world military basing presence to go down by 50% yes folks 50%. Its a new ball game. You are own ur own now.
 
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wjr321       4/8/2009 12:09:49 AM
Nasty,
 
Our "speaker for the dead" is exactly right. We, the citizens of the U.S., are and should be sick of throwing treasure at European problems. We have been doing this for nearly a century now and no one that I know of can tell me that there is an end to this. You folks have virtually no skin in the game now days so you have the luxury of benefiting from my tax dollars and our blood sacrifice while exercising loud, hypocritically moral denunciations of us. You folks need to pay your own way and our kids should quit paying for your sins. Yes, sins. You clowns screwed the Middle East up in the early 20th Century so, now why don't you fix it?
 
You folks have been on and extended vacation for at least 40 years and I, for one, am tired of indirectly paying for your generous vacations to the Greek Isles and the spa days in Baden-Baden.
 
Best,
wjr
 
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Panther       4/8/2009 12:41:27 AM
Well Necro... you never cease to amaze me. Always on the look out for that right button too push. At the very least, no one can accuse of you of not being persistent. Or have they already?
 
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wjr321       4/8/2009 12:43:23 AM
Nasty,
 
Our "speaker for the dead" is exactly right. We, the citizens of the U.S., are and should be sick of throwing treasure at European problems. We have been doing this for nearly a century now and no one that I know of can tell me that there is an end to this. You folks have virtually no skin in the game now days so you have the luxury of benefiting from my tax dollars and our blood sacrifice while exercising loud, hypocritically moral denunciations of us. You folks need to pay your own way and our kids should quit paying for your sins. Yes, sins. You clowns screwed the Middle East up in the early 20th Century so, now why don't you fix it?
 
You folks have been on and extended vacation for at least 40 years and I, for one, am tired of indirectly paying for your generous vacations to the Greek Isles and the spa days in Baden-Baden.
 
Best,
wjr
 
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Necromancer    wjr actually   4/8/2009 2:16:56 AM
 
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Jimme    Can't stop because no one else can do it.   4/8/2009 2:59:49 AM
If US were to stop being the unofficial global cop, who is going to keep shipping lanes open? Who is going to keep dictators and tyrants confined to their own parts of the world. Who is going to keep 2 nuclear powers from starting an all out war. Who is going to keep current non nuclear powers with the Tech to nuke up at any time from going nuclear (like Germany Japan) or regional powers from feeling the need to develop nukes. Who is going to keep space from becoming a cut throat ffa. Whos going to keep the middle east from becoming an all out war zone with the locals caught in the middle.
 
Then when something builds up so much that we now have to deal with it who is going to help us, let us build bases on or fly over their lands. Who is going to trust us when we need them to. Who is going to believe us when finally do put our foot down. 
 
Its never as easy as turning the other cheek especially when you have the biggest face to try and hide.
 
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Knjaz       4/8/2009 10:56:59 AM

I assumed that your post was simply an observation so I did not take anything  personally. 
 
I was simply venting my spleen at the state of things. We should come home and let the rest of the world go to hell in its' own way. The only thing that we should pro actively do is to utterly devastate any person or power who attacks us. And, we should do this without remorse and without consideration of collateral damage. If you harbor a bad guy or group of bad guys then either root them out or die with them.

I don't know about anyone else on this board but I have absolutely no problem in making Saudi Arabia or Iran into a radioactive wasteland. We have given way too much treasure and lost too many lives to get ingrates out of trouble.
Enough is enough, Let them solve their own problems and let them be terrified of treading upon us.

Best,

wjr



Wow, I can't believe I'm actually reading this.
Is it the path Obama/American elite is going to step on? Or this is just in form of possible ideas at the moment ?
Just didn't pay enough attention to world politics in last 2 months....
 
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wjr321       4/8/2009 1:34:58 PM
Knjaz,
 
 No this is not the Obama path. Indeed, Bambi will look more like Jimmy Carter. He will whine to the UN, equivocate and abuse both the taxpayer and the military but he will not rationalize our foreign policy.
 
Don't worry about the U.S. in this respect. We will continue being the worlds patsy.
 
Best,
wjr
 
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wjr321       4/8/2009 5:04:38 PM

If US were to stop being the unofficial global cop, who is going to keep shipping lanes open?
 
A: If you look at the earlier post you will see that the desire is to pour money into the Navy with the implication being to do exactly this. More cariers, more drones, more remote death delivery.
 
Who is going to keep dictators and tyrants confined to their own parts of the world.
 
A: That's exactly the point. We should not care.
 
Who is going to keep 2 nuclear powers from starting an all out war.
 
A: Use nukes, get nuked. Pax Americana should be a macro policy, not a micro policy. North American missile defense should be a key priority.
 
Who is going to keep current non nuclear powers with the Tech to nuke up at any time from going nuclear (like Germany Japan) or regional powers from feeling the need to develop nukes.
 
A: Life is arbitrary at times. We really don't care about Germany or Japan having a nuke. They won't use them. We really, really do care about the Iranians having a nuke because they will use it. So, better dead Iranians than Israel being radioactive. No morality, no law (it really does not exist among nations anyway -- just agreements of convenience) and no tears for folks who cannot control their governments.
 
Who is going to keep space from becoming a cut throat ffa.
 
A: To a great extent it already is. The minute someone figures out how to practically militarize space they will--  notwithstanding the UN.
 
Whos going to keep the middle east from becoming an all out war zone with the locals caught in the middle.

A: No one. If the locals want a change then let them change their respective governments. In the end, people consent to being governed. They may not like the government they have but if they are too cowardly to do something about it then they deserve what they have and what they get. OTOH, Israel is our step child and the only civilized place in the Middle East. The only exception I would make to a general hands off policy is Israel.

Then when something builds up so much that we now have to deal with it who is going to help us, let us build bases on or fly over their lands.
 
A: No one really helps us now, unless they are bribed, so how is this different? We should appreciate the few who do put some skin in the game now but is this worth destroying our country? Keep in mind that the U.S. is in clear decline as an economic power. We cannot maintain our posture around the world without greatly exacerbating this problem. We are eating our economic seed corn in order to solve problems for other people who despise us.
 
Who is going to trust us when we need them to.
 
A: We don't trust them and they don't trust us. This is the definition of international relationships, so your point is?
 
Who is going to believe us when finally do put our foot down. 

A: Speak softly and carry a big stick. Corollary: Apply big stick, repeat as necessary. This assumes that we are not squeamish about high rad counts in certain places outside of North America.

Its never as easy as turning the other cheek especially when you have the biggest face to try and hide.
 
A: This is not cheek turning. Rather it is macro management of the really bad guys (in a sanguinary fashion) without guilt about the collateral damage associated with that management. Otherwise, we leave people alone to find their own fate.
 
I'm not suggesting that we move the country to a monastery. I am suggesting that the world is made up of people with aspirations that do not match ours. Much of the world is in dire need of a Renaissance similar to what occurred in Europe in the 14th and 15th Centuries. However, that Renaissance and, later, Reformation took centuries to complete and cost untold thousands of lives. No country and no group of Western countr
 
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wjr321       4/8/2009 5:20:10 PM
Nasty,
 
Wiki Bismark and Morocco. Then wiki World War I and Turkey. Then wiki World War II and Iraq, Libya and Egypt.
 
I grant you that the Germans did not have as much to do with screwing up the Middle East as the other European powers at the time but that is only because they arrived late. 

As to the economic crisis -- you guys love to blame the U.S. but if you take a look at it objectively you will find that you had at least as bad case of the stupids as we did. The first pebble that led to the dam collapsing was here but a lot of the big chunks that came down were across the pond and were built entirely in the EU.
 
Oh, BTW, we do thank you for von Braun and his colleagues. The Brits wanted to hang them -- with some good reason -- but, on the whole, overseas employment worked out better for them.
 
Best,
wjr
 
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Herald12345       4/8/2009 5:21:49 PM

I might remark, though, that, even at this late date, it behooves no German to speak with any moral imperative about foreign affairs. I believe that it was William Dodd, the University of Chicago historian and ambassador to Germany from 1933 to 1938, who said that, on the whole, Germans were carnivorous sheep. Having had significant experience in Germany, I see no reason to update that comment.

This is called a false-man or straw-man argument. I'm trying to see what it has to do with current problems myself. ______________________________________________________________________________________________

Quoting dead embassadors doesnt stop Germans born in the 80´s to voice their opinion, sorry. The Nazi Argument doesnt apply to todays Germans. Believe it or not, not even my Grandpa (born ´27, drafted into the Wehrmacht 1945, with 18 years - had no choice nor did he carry any personal guilt for what the Nazis did. Or would you like to dispute over the power of a 6 year old to stop Hitler from grabbing power ? )  Germany has more than any country accepted its guilt and apologized for it.  Is there any other country in the World that has a Monument dedicated to its victims in front of its Parliament ? 

Secondly, the US has benefited from Germany as Germany has benefited from the United States.  Who helped you build that fancy rocket that helped you place your flag on the moon ?  There are dozens of other points ...

Well there was this guy called Robert Goddard. There was another guy called Konstantin Tsiolkovsky. Nobody has a monopoly on rocketry and aeronautics engineering. Even the DPRKs do it. Just not well.....http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 

Now to the financial crisis.  Who are you to cry about paying a Germans vacation ?!  It was not Germany that had its housing market collapse, maybe you havent noticed but Europe did pay billions and trillions for this recent collapse that was not caused by Europe. 

Another straw-man and off point I agree.
 
And Germany did less than anyone else (Russians, US, Brits, French) in causing problems in the Middle East, I have no Idea where you got that from.

Chemicals and electronics deals with the Butcher of Baghdad maybe, but then there was enough rotten hypocrisy to go around. (US Department of Agriculture billion dollar loan deal that built a couple of palaces and funded some anthrax research) Not enough sticking out to single out one state (Well; France maybe under that 1%er criminal, Chirac) but you know what I mean.
 
Herald
 
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