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Subject: What Event Marked the Decline of the British Empire?
Godofgamblers    3/31/2009 2:45:59 AM
When did the Decline of the British Empire Begin? I think in the case of the French Empire, the beginning of the end was very clear: The War of 1871. The creation of Germany and the military fiasco with Napoleon III at its head was the deathknell of France’s ambitions as a world superpower. The creation of Germany meant an eclipsing of France’s greatness, a new rival (a rival which was much more powerful) and the defeat of Napoleon III dashed all hopes of a New Empire. But for the British, the timing of the decline is much less clear. Some may argue that WW2 ended Britain’s reign as it was destitute and had to relinquish many of its colonies (notably India). I feel that WW1 marked the end; the mass culling of its elites in the suicidal Franco-Prussian War Part 2 killed off the best human resources of the Brit Empire. Some say the Boer War marked the beginning of the end as a handful of brash upstarts managed to better the British army. Or did the decline begin with the US Revolutionary War? Your comments, as always, are much appreciated, Gentlemen…
 
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Herald12345    Loss of control at sea.   4/1/2009 6:47:27 PM

Pretty cool thread. The American revolution didn't break the British bank, as already has been pointed out. Any tax revenues the British lost after they lost part of their North American empire was more than made good else where. After the revolution, both the US and Britain kept trading with one another as if there was never a war in the first place, with the exception for the war of 1812 of course.

 

What event marked the decline, i don't know? I'm rather torn between two camps: The growing industrial might of her main industrial rival nations at the dawn of the 20th century or WW1 (The Great War)?




 

 

Once Britain was no longer able to dictate how trade was conducted or the movement of her enemies around the world, the jig was UP.
 
That is why I see WW I as confirmation of but not the key incident that led to the decline of her advantage and the end of her empire.
 
I'm surprised that JFKY saw it nearly the same way I did.  Germany had to export to build a powerhouse industrial economy based o9n seaborne trade. Japan likewise. Both nations destroyed Britain on the sealanes even though she eventually defeated both. Mahan.
 
Herald
.
 
 
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JFKY    Small Chart   4/1/2009 7:44:12 PM
that illustrates my point....
To be found at:
 
Country % of Total Warmaking Potential
United States 41.7%
Germany 14.4%
USSR 14.0%
UK 10.2%
France 4.2%
Japan 3.5%
Italy 2.5%
Seven Powers (total) (90.5%)
 
Please note Britain, in WWII has 10 points of war-making ability, Germany 14 points, the US has almost 42 points, three times Germany!  FOUR TIMES Britain's capacity...when Germany and the US EQUALLED Britain, in the era 1890...Britain's system hegemony was over-thrown.  Not the International System, per se, but the hegemon enforcing rules was over-thrown.  It took the rest of the world another 20 years to wake up to the fact, and it took the US another 60 YEARS to accept and act on the fact, but in the 1890's Britain lost the ability to dictate to the International System, and had to seek allies in order to enforce the system rules, allies such as France, Japan, and eventually the new hegemon, the US.  Germany was unable/unwilling to secure allies to achieve a system dominance.
 
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Godofgamblers       4/1/2009 10:42:27 PM




Pretty cool thread. The American revolution didn't break the British bank, as already has been pointed out. Any tax revenues the British lost after they lost part of their North American empire was more than made good else where. After the revolution, both the US and Britain kept trading with one another as if there was never a war in the first place, with the exception for the war of 1812 of course.



 



What event marked the decline, i don't know? I'm rather torn between two camps: The growing industrial might of her main industrial rival nations at the dawn of the 20th century or WW1 (The Great War)?










 



 




Once Britain was no longer able to dictate how trade was conducted or the movement of her enemies around the world, the jig was UP.

 

That is why I see WW I as confirmation of but not the key incident that led to the decline of her advantage and the end of her empire.


 

I'm surprised that JFKY saw it nearly the same way I did.  Germany had to export to build a powerhouse industrial economy based o9n seaborne trade. Japan likewise. Both nations destroyed Britain on the sealanes even though she eventually defeated both. Mahan.

 

Herald


.


 


Good to read your prose, H.
I have a a rather naive question: why is it that Germany is such an industrial powerhouse? It is surely not geography.... Poland and France are geographically close yet do not enjoy the same strength; it is not technology, since most of Europe is at the same level. It is not purely population since Germany's advantage is not that great.... why has Germany from its very inception always been industrially more powerful, even without a significant overseas empire?
 
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verong       4/1/2009 11:07:59 PM









Pretty cool thread. The American revolution didn't break the British bank, as already has been pointed out. Any tax revenues the British lost after they lost part of their North American empire was more than made good else where. After the revolution, both the US and Britain kept trading with one another as if there was never a war in the first place, with the exception for the war of 1812 of course.







 







What event marked the decline, i don't know? I'm rather torn between two camps: The growing industrial might of her main industrial rival nations at the dawn of the 20th century or WW1 (The Great War)?






















 







 










Once Britain was no longer able to dictate how trade was conducted or the movement of her enemies around the world, the jig was UP.



 



That is why I see WW I as confirmation of but not the key incident that led to the decline of her advantage and the end of her empire.






 



I'm surprised that JFKY saw it nearly the same way I did.  Germany had to export to build a powerhouse industrial economy based o9n seaborne trade. Japan likewise. Both nations destroyed Britain on the sealanes even though she eventually defeated both. Mahan.



 



Herald






.






 






Good to read your prose, H.


I have a a rather naive question: why is it that Germany is such an industrial powerhouse? It is surely not geography.... Poland and France are geographically close yet do not enjoy the same strength; it is not technology, since most of Europe is at the same level. It is not purely population since Germany's advantage is not that great.... why has Germany from its very inception always been industrially more powerful, even without a significant overseas empire?




Hey there,
 
Maybe they thought they needed it to survive, and put more into it than the rest!!!
 
Keith
 
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Godofgamblers    Keith   4/1/2009 11:21:28 PM
Could be..... or is it purely cultural? The same reason why the Germans can march longer than everyone else and can fire their guns faster than everyone else?
 
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Godofgamblers       4/2/2009 12:04:25 AM
 
To make a departure in a serious vein, i think the moment the Brit Empire fell was when Mr. Bean appeared in James Bond.
 
At that point, most of us realized the gig was up.
 
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DropBear       4/2/2009 3:21:43 AM
I don't think there was a single defined event or moment that can be drawn upon to illustrate the decline of the British Empire.
I would suggest that when its largest colonial franchises broke away and became nations in their own right the "Empire" as a single entity ended.
 
Having said that, most former franchises remain today in the "British Commonwealth" club.
 
 
 
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buzzard       4/2/2009 7:20:14 AM
I don't think there was a single defined event or moment that can be drawn upon to illustrate the decline of the British Empire.
I would suggest that when its largest colonial franchises broke away and became nations in their own right the "Empire" as a single entity ended.
 
 Actually I was going to proffer some discussion along these lines myself, but in a bit of a different direction. We've seen a lot of comparison of industrial capacity beyween the UK and Germany, and have used this is being indicative of their decline from great power capacity. However the British Empire wasn't just the UK. There were some other industrialized nations in the mix. It would be interesting to see what the industrial capacity of the whole empire at the time amounted to. While I am unsure about the situation in, say, 1900, by W.W. II both Canada and Australia were significant industrial nations, and coupled with the output of the U.K. must have totaled something pretty respectable. I guess the question, therefore, becomes when did Australia and Canada really industrialize? Was it only after removing themselves from the empire? If so, this could well be why the empire saw its fall.
 
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Godofgamblers       4/2/2009 7:50:47 AM
By the 1600s, and for whatever reason, the Greco-roman-celtic-judaeo-christian-anglo-saxon-norse-renaissance influences that had accumulated in England for the past 1000 years reached a critical mass, and the lucky collection of experts, and geniuses that made up Elizabeth I's Privy Council gave birth to what was arguably the first nation state. Now, for the first time, all those positive feedback loops of trade were occurring not over a city of a few hundred thousand, but a nation of a few million. And the trade was no longer just in goods and services but, with organisations like the Royal Society, it was in knowledge too. (Newton said he was standing on the shoulders of giants.)
 
Hi AP, I don't know much about that period of history. Why was Elizabeth's I's priy council different from the others of that time?
 
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Herald12345    The Germans are efficient.   4/2/2009 8:22:13 AM
Thank you, GoG.








Pretty cool thread. The American revolution didn't break the British bank, as already has been pointed out. Any tax revenues the British lost after they lost part of their North American empire was more than made good else where. After the revolution, both the US and Britain kept trading with one another as if there was never a war in the first place, with the exception for the war of 1812 of course.







 







What event marked the decline, i don't know? I'm rather torn between two camps: The growing industrial might of her main industrial rival nations at the dawn of the 20th century or WW1 (The Great War)?






















 







 










Once Britain was no longer able to dictate how trade was conducted or the movement of her enemies around the world, the jig was UP.



 



That is why I see WW I as confirmation of but not the key incident that led to the decline of her advantage and the end of her empire.






 



I'm surprised that JFKY saw it nearly the same way I did.  Germany had to export to build a powerhouse industrial economy based o9n seaborne trade. Japan likewise. Both nations destroyed Britain on the sealanes even though she eventually defeated both. Mahan.



 



Herald






.






 






Good to read your prose, H.


I have a a rather naive question: why is it that Germany is such an industrial powerhouse? It is surely not geography.... Poland and France are geographically close yet do not enjoy the same strength; it is not technology, since most of Europe is at the same level. It is not purely population since Germany's advantage is not that great.... why has Germany from its very inception always been industrially more powerful, even without a significant overseas empire?


They get the most out of a Human Being that they can  Even their janitors are efficient. Thank whomever that the NSDAP were a bunch of retards who screwed up, or we'd never have beaten them. Could you imagine an entire government of Albert Speers with a technical manager class led by the Oberths, Tanks, von Brauns, and Walthers:with Heinkel and Junkers running industrial policy, and with guys like Mannstein, Doenitz, and Milch in charge of the war machine, left unmolested for ten years to get ready? 
 
Herald
 
 
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