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Subject: Are complex military-economic societies like USA doomed to fail surely and suddenly?
Necromancer    3/27/2009 3:49:07 PM
Anthropologist and historian Joseph Tainter wrote a fine book about it, The Collapse of Complex Societies. Collapse tends to occur quickly, as complex systems simply break down and the social construct declines to a much simpler form. -----Like the SOviet Union and sudden end of the British empire, Spain, Rome (they took a few years to decades, but that was quick considering they were dominat for a few centuries)
 
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Parmenion       8/13/2009 4:43:59 PM

 

This thread has really brought the crazies out of the woodwork.

 

(F.S. you're okay for now but stop slagging of the RN)

 
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french stratege       8/13/2009 5:42:54 PM
France is a lot of things, but LOYAL is NOT one of them.
Speartip you are right and Beazz is completly out of reason
France was unconditonnaly behind USA in Cuba crisis, or Euromissile crisis or even Gulf war.Or today facing Iran.
We were not you in Iraq war, because we thought that US strategy was not good and jeopardized our interests.
France want its interests to be recognized and do whatever we need in order to get it.
However we never crossed the red line by selling our best technology or best weapons to US ennemies like China or Iran or Venezuela.
Now as we are independant we can pratice our policy and if US want France as an ally they have to make some compromize.
USA and France are the only messianic nations of western world with ability to act alone, and France has lot of sympathies in third world elites.
 
"How many centurys has it been since France led anything aside from making a bottle of wine?  We do  not need France."
Crimean war, Chinese war, WW1, post WW1 intervention against Russia (Poland war and help of white Russians during russian civil war) , Rift war or intervention in Syria post WW1, and even Vietnam war.Without our fight in Vietnam, you would have to do Vietnam war 10 years before in order to prevent communism to get all Vietnam.Remember that Uncle Ho was a communist much before.
Since, main support to Israel until 1967, a lot of intervention in Africa to prevent communist or islamist to grab it.
Now France has top military technology to sell and it is better we not sell it to America ennemies like China, we have an army willing to fight in Africa to hold back Islamics or Chinese (our current main task), and we have prominent position in Mediterranean sea and a good one in Indian ocean and Africa horn.
We have also good spy networks in arabs countries or Africa.
Moreover France has a unique advantage within western democraties.Our President can send troops, or do special operations without consulting our parlement.While US law for exemple do not give such advantage to US president and prohibit assassination of foreign leaders.
Or we can act as an intermediary less suspect to be pro US than UK for exemple.
 
 
 
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french stratege       8/13/2009 5:50:51 PM
And I forgot
It is France which supported white South Africa until end of appartheid to fight communists in Angola during Cold war.
A thing USA could not do because of huge number of black voters in USA.
And South Africa was essential for western world during cold war.
It is France who helped Zaire to fight back Angola and communists to prevent them to takeover Katanga and its cobalt mines.Remember cobalt is used in jet engine turbines to achive high temperatures,  and was necessary for that and Zaire was the only producer outside communists world.
 
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Beazz       8/13/2009 10:52:08 PM

A leader must assess the contingent of their ally based on what the end result will be after the ally has been given access to proper guidance. Leaders lead and it has nothing to do with someone wanting your leadership. You simply state what will be allowed and stress what will not be tolerated. If a subordinate ally fails it is because of deficient leadership. Things will be different in the future.

LOL>... so what book ya readin that gobbly gook from spearman? Is that what Confusus say? lol Oh and if ya stop sitting in front of your dumb PC and hitting the refresh button every 10 minutes to see if anyone replied to your wonderful words of wisdom we want have to read your stupidity in triplicate ok.
Have a nice day
 
Beazz
 
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Beazz       8/13/2009 10:56:15 PM

And I forgot

It is France which supported white South Africa until end of appartheid to fight communists in Angola during Cold war.

A thing USA could not do because of huge number of black voters in USA.

And South Africa was essential for western world during cold war.

It is France who helped Zaire to fight back Angola and communists to prevent them to takeover Katanga and its cobalt mines.Remember cobalt is used in jet engine turbines to achive high temperatures,  and was necessary for that and Zaire was the only producer outside communists world.


Keep telling yourself how important yall are FS. You'll eventually convince yourself I am sure of it. If it's for my benefit and your aim is to convince me that France is anything above useless, save the bandwidth cuz I ain't interested nor in the market for anything French.
Have a nice day
 
Beazz
 
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LB    Premise is Flawed   8/14/2009 1:28:26 AM
One might challenge your premise that the US is a "military-economic" society in a variety of ways of which I will cite two:  Firstly, the vast majority of American citizens have no relationship to either the military services or the defense industrial base;  Secondly, the US spends less than 4% of GNP on defense.
 
The US remains one of the most dynamic societies on earth where innovation flourishes in ways that do not occur with similar frequencies anywhere else.  The US develops new companies, products, and services at a pace few other nations match- think of one.
 
To imagine the US is "doomed to fail surely and suddenly" is ridiculous.  To cite the Roman and British empires as examples when neither fell suddenly is poor scholarship.  When the US can still attract the best and brightest from the around the world and embrace them as fellow citizens and have them believe themselves to become an American it's a bit early to talk about the fall of the USA.  When our best and brightest want to live in China, India, or elsewhere and become citizens of those nations that will be an excellent signal that our best days are far behind.
 
 
 
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Le Zookeeper    LB we have 90 days to find out if the dumbest of us    8/14/2009 1:36:02 AM
will want to continue living here. I sound harsh but a dollar devaluation and bank holidays are almost here. You would be a fool to wanna get paid in dollars and open a savings account at citibank. Lets hope for a Chinese miracle.
One might challenge your premise that the US is a "military-economic" society in a variety of ways of which I will cite two:  Firstly, the vast majority of American citizens have no relationship to either the military services or the defense industrial base;  Secondly, the US spends less than 4% of GNP on defense.

 

The US remains one of the most dynamic societies on earth where innovation flourishes in ways that do not occur with similar frequencies anywhere else.  The US develops new companies, products, and services at a pace few other nations match- think of one.

 

To imagine the US is "doomed to fail surely and suddenly" is ridiculous.  To cite the Roman and British empires as examples when neither fell suddenly is poor scholarship.  When the US can still attract the best and brightest from the around the world and embrace them as fellow citizens and have them believe themselves to become an American it's a bit early to talk about the fall of the USA.  When our best and brightest want to live in China, India, or elsewhere and become citizens of those nations that will be an excellent signal that our best days are far behind.


 

 



 
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