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Subject: What Can We Do To Fix The US Army?
Softwar    2/13/2009 3:50:26 PM
Besides spares and maint. - Let's go with aviation equipment for starters - the Army needs a replacement for the remaining UH-1 choppers, a new light observation chopper to replace aging Kiowas, upgrades to the AH-64 force, and a new series of heavy lift choppers (or more Chinooks) to maintain air mobile levels. Now armor - we need to upgrade the Stryker and add more to replace low armored HUMVEEs in front line service. Ground transport - better armored trucks seem to be in order here. Artillery - can someone please finallly pick a SP 155 platform that makes sense?? Infantry - we have the M-4 procurement to complete and Geeezzz Louise... replace the 9 MM pistol with the 1911. Buy more 50 cals. Improve local intell - small UAVs, trained translators and handlers instead of tearing around town trying to be nasty. ID systems for both captured enemy as well as friendly forces. Training and logistical support - develop and deploy small unit tactics - these were very ineffective especially in urban environments. A NTC for small unit and urban warfare is in order here. Make use of combat experience vets instead of simply letting them wander off. We did that in WII and Korea - it works and saves lives. Instead, we muster them out after being assured they will not go bezerk and pop a cap in someone. Leadership!!! The patrol and plaster tactics used during OIF took too many casualties and left guys with their butts hanging out without proper communications, air support or control. Officers were slow to utilize unmanned/robot systems - instead they opted to bust down doors with the old bad-ass entry and shoot 'em up. Top brass are more interested in micro managing unit activity than trying to supply them with the tools and turning them loose.
 
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stbretnco    Fix the US Army?   2/15/2009 11:17:11 PM
Start with the basics of leadership.
 
The zero-defect mentality which has polluted the US Army has eroded the leadership and tied the hands of commanders.
 
High quality training in the Reserve and NG components? Don't make me laugh. High quality paperwork more like it. Integrity has completely left leadership in the Army when it comes to reports. As an O/C (Observer Controller) and Mob Operations NCO I routinely saw units which looked stellar on paper, but couldn't move to a new field site without guidance.
 
Exactly how long do you have to neglect a Ma Deuce for D/S armorer to red tag the entire animal and tag it for destruction and replacement? If your Ma Deuces are in that kind of shape, what doe the rest of your equipment look like?
 
How many soldiers have to report to the gas chamber with completely inoperative masks before the O/C's get disgusted?
 
How many grossly overweight and out of shape soldiers have to report to mob station before someone calls NGB and asks a TAG WTF?
 
However, in some cases we weren't allowed to submit a realistic critique of a unit because it would affect their FSP level, hence funding status.
 
Big "A" Army is hidebound and will not allow changes in training without complete review and approval, which can literally take years.
 
There's a lot wrong with the force as it stands, unfortunately I can't get more into specifics because some of the soldiers are still downrange getting shot at.
 
I'd love to have the crate of files a Major hand delivered to one MAT describing in detail what's wrong with the MOB process and training, because he was spot on.
 
 
 
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YelliChink       2/15/2009 11:17:35 PM

Until you can explain why the Army made the bonehead mistakes it made and that it admits, its useless to discuss this rationally with you. You are in the business of making excuses instead of addressing the issues.

 

How very Rumsfeld of you.

 

Herald



Herald, I don't think Darth is high enough to be blamed for the early mistake of war planning. Shinseki made suggestion to Rumsfeld but  was swept aside. There were simply no 500,000 soldiers available. The higher ups in the Army did foresee the need for COIN. It's just that the policymakers think otherwise and were willing to gamble.
 
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strat-T21C    The topic...   2/16/2009 12:28:45 AM

Besides spares and maint. -

Let's go with aviation equipment for starters - the Army needs a replacement for the remaining UH-1 choppers, a new light observation chopper to replace aging Kiowas, upgrades to the AH-64 force, and a new series of heavy lift choppers (or more Chinooks) to maintain air mobile levels.

Now armor - we need to upgrade the Stryker and add more to replace low armored HUMVEEs in front line service.

Ground transport - better armored trucks seem to be in order here.

Artillery - can someone please finallly pick a SP 155 platform that makes sense??

Infantry - we have the M-4 procurement to complete and Geeezzz Louise... replace the 9 MM pistol with the 1911. Buy more 50 cals. Improve local intell - small UAVs, trained translators and handlers instead of tearing around town trying to be nasty. ID systems for both captured enemy as well as friendly forces.

Training and logistical support - develop and deploy small unit tactics - these were very ineffective especially in urban environments. A NTC for small unit and urban warfare is in order here. Make use of combat experience vets instead of simply letting them wander off. We did that in WII and Korea - it works and saves lives. Instead, we muster them out after being assured they will not go bezerk and pop a cap in someone.

Leadership!!!
The patrol and plaster tactics used during OIF took too many casualties and left guys with their butts hanging out without proper communications, air support or control. Officers were slow to utilize unmanned/robot systems - instead they opted to bust down doors with the old bad-ass entry and shoot 'em up. Top brass are more interested in micro managing unit activity than trying to supply them with the tools and turning them loose.


Gents, the question cannot really be solved by saying " oooo! that's a shiny peice o' kit, let's get it!" The question can be answered in other ways. I have seen some outstanding US soldiers, exellent examples what a soldier should be, and how one should act and conduct ones-self, on and off of the field of battle. However, the higher command structure does not allow the junior leadership enough freedom of action. A 2nd LT should not be able to override the expeiriance and intuition of a Ptn Sgt. Command yes, but not to tactically dictate to a proffesional soldier of 10-20 yrs exp. The Lt/jr Capt should lean on that Sgt more often as a mentor to learn the small things that make soldiers tick and it is those "small things" that can make or break an army. Look at the Russians lately, no real proffesional nco corps and a higher command that does not think in real terms. This was a near disaster that was only avoided through a combo of numbers and an opposing force (Georgia) that was actually more pathetic than themselves. I have heard on occasion an officer dress down a US nco, the officer said to the nco " you don't think, that's my job got it" sad.
 
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DarthAmerica    It's called The Art of War for a reason...   2/16/2009 11:04:01 AM

Until you can explain why the Army made the bonehead mistakes it made and that it admits, its useless to discuss this rationally with you. You are in the business of making excuses instead of addressing the issues.

 

How very Rumsfeld of you.

 

Herald


  it is only useless, if you intend this to be a one-way conversation. Otherwise, the "bonehead mistakes," are simply the inevitable fog of war. It's really easy 2020 hindsight to pass these kinds of judgments. However, as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said, you really do "go to war with the Army you have." The Army we had as well as the administration even, planed for a major war with a near peer threat that doesn't exist. So did the other services which is why SecDef Gates prodded the USAF in the right direction.

 

-DA 
 
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HERALD1357    There is paint by numbers and there is SKILL.   2/16/2009 11:45:11 AM




Until you can explain why the Army made the bonehead mistakes it made and that it admits, its useless to discuss this rationally with you. You are in the business of making excuses instead of addressing the issues.



 



How very Rumsfeld of you.



 



Herald







  it is only useless, if you intend this to be a one-way conversation. Otherwise, the "bonehead mistakes," are simply the inevitable fog of war. It's really easy 2020 hindsight to pass these kinds of judgments. However, as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said, you really do "go to war with the Army you have." The Army we had as well as the administration even, planed for a major war with a near peer threat that doesn't exist. So did the other services which is why SecDef Gates prodded the USAF in the right direction.




 




-DA 
The conversation is one way. Data from me to you and all I get in return from you is platitudes.
 
History is the teacher- or to quote my favorite guy:
 
"Solid planning always yields solid results."
 
Raymond Spruance
 
I don't suppose PLAN ORANGE means anything to you?

Herald
 
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DarthAmerica       2/16/2009 12:13:08 PM

The conversation is one way. Data from me to you and all I get in return from you is platitudes.

No, it's not one way. Also, you haven't provided any data nor do you even have the data necessary to make the conclusions you do. What you have is an opinion based on a partial set of information.  I have the military service, training and direct experience with the conflict we are discussion to support my assessment. IOW, what you are trying to discern from google searches and guestimation I've seen with the MK1 eyeball.  

History is the teacher- or to quote my favorite guy:

"Solid planning always yields solid results."

Raymond Spruance 

I don't suppose PLAN ORANGE means anything to you?

If you are going to make such an obviously bad supposition then that's on you.  Rather than continue to error on this matter, ask questions. I can tell you from experience that no plan survives first contact with the enemy Herald. Things change in war and the DoD was the was it was because the Civilians in charge of it wanted it that way. We planned for solid results against the Russians and later the PRC only to find that Yeltsin purposely neutered the Russian Military for fear of coup and the PRC is more business partner and competitor rather than enemy.

We went to Iraq, fought and won a conventional conflict. In the post conflict, Iran and AQI poured gasoline on the fire causing the nation of tribes better known as Iraq to go into insurgency with a 3 year FID campaign. The DoD didn't have the manpower or organizational agility to deal with the sudden change because it spent too much effort looking at the PRC. What we did have were well led soldiers and marines trained to deal with it anyway who adapted to the threat. We also had the industrial capacity to rapidly flood the battlefield with light armor and EW/ISR assets that made the enemy tactics combat ineffective and we had a POTUS with the guts to stick it out. The only place well laid plans always work out are in peoples heads and on computer simulation. That's not the way war works in the real world. With regard to solid results, we got that. Which says a lot about the capability of the U.S. Army. 

-DA 

 
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strat-T21C    Best of freinds   2/16/2009 12:35:17 PM
I'd like to see Herald and Darth America get together for beers! UFC baby WOOO!
 
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YelliChink       2/16/2009 12:39:08 PM


The conversation is one way. Data from me to you and all I get in return from you is platitudes.

 History is the teacher- or to quote my favorite guy:
 
"Solid planning always yields solid results."
 
Raymond Spruance

I don't suppose PLAN ORANGE means anything to you?

Herald

Solid planning requires solid intelligence and knowledge about your enemy. Any enemy with half brain knows that they'd better not to fight your fight, and, thus, will plan to counter your plan. I think Sun Tzu and Karl von Clausewitz wrote enough about war planning. There are only few examples of perfect planning in military history, the rest are mostly like decision on gambling, action and reaction. The ability to cope with error (loss), adapt and overcome is equally important as solid planning.
 
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DarthAmerica       2/16/2009 12:42:44 PM

I'd like to see Herald and Darth America get together for beers! UFC baby WOOO!

I'd drink with any of you. No UFC though, this is just a message board. Anyone who takes it THAT SERIOUS has a severe mental problem. 


-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       2/16/2009 12:55:25 PM


Solid planning requires solid intelligence and knowledge about your enemy. Any enemy with half brain knows that they'd better not to fight your fight, and, thus, will plan to counter your plan. I think Sun Tzu and Karl von Clausewitz wrote enough about war planning. There are only few examples of perfect planning in military history, the rest are mostly like decision on gambling, action and reaction. The ability to cope with error (loss), adapt and overcome is equally important as solid planning.

EXACTLY. War is not science in the conventional sense. Well it is to a certain extent but it's like working with imaginary numbers(i). You can plan and execute all you want. That isn't the test. The test is when the plans change on the fly because of some unforeseen event. Thats when you find out what you are made of. The way things changed over there on a daily basis due to public perceptions is almost impossible to comprehend. Constantly changing loyalties and third party nations occasionally intervening on behalf of their interest. The tough domestic political situation President Bush was dealing with. All these things mattered. But the DoD managed to work with it all. One of the best examples of how well trained and flexible the troops are is the rapid fielding of the various up armored platforms, body armor and BFT. The NET teams ect. Also lets not forget the rapid battlefield reorganization the military went through. Things like taking an AD Chemical Company and using them to augment an NG Infantry Battalion on the fly then sending them to battle! It doesn't seem like much if you haven't been involved in it but it really is. It would be like taking a basketball player and asking him to play wide receiver on a football team. The amount of leadership and training necessary to pull that off successfully is mind blowing.  

-DA 
 
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