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Subject: Debate
Heenanc    1/25/2009 8:12:48 PM
I think for this forum to survive people need to realize that other cultures and opinons need respect, I've being reading now for about 2 years and at one point it was a real eye opener for me and I spent many day just looking for info and people views on subjects. But now with people like 'Herold' it's turned into a quagmire and no resonable debate is found. I'm British and I understand that Britain is not top dog but other people on the board need to realize the world changes. Rather than be stuck in your ways why not treat peoples view with respect and if you don't agree reply in a calm and adult way rather than posting offending comments. I think it will be an advantage for everyone.
 
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JFKY    No....   1/26/2009 8:25:29 PM

Sorry dude I don't defend Fletcher...you've got me confused with LaryCJR.  "MR Bright" that you are SUPPOSED to be, might have remembered that...oh Almighty Perfect One.

 

But that is a good point of take-off.  You see what you proclaim as "FACT" turns out to be interpretation.  Larry gave as good as he got in those debates...and in the end you weren't obviously the winner.  Because you all are debating an interpretation of the facts, was Fletcher or Halsey a decent commander?  The answer is NOT a fact a fact, it is an interpretation of facts...

 

The ability of the ASTER Missile and its radar to share telemetry is a fact, whether or not that makes ASER any good or not is an interpretation.  You confuse the two things, and in your mind Interpretation BECOMES "fact."  It's not and many see that in you, even when you do not.

 

It's obvious that Fletcher was NOT a "nitwit" BTW, he was a highly regarded and successful Naval Commander...only in Herald Land is someone of that caliber a nitwit...Herald, who as far as we can tell has never commanded any vessel larger than a power boat, nor any combat vessel larger than an RC battleship in a local pond...now has the Chutzpah to call Fletcher a Nitwit.  That?s your problem; you're convinced of your own ineffable correctness...as I say get over yourself.

 

Sure we can make a judgment that ASTER has serious flaws and that Fletcher was not as good as Commander "X" or made a number of mistakes, but they are judgments, and not merely facts, and it's obvious, that in the case of Fletcher, that that interpretation is contested and contestable...Only Herald can't see that.  ASTER, being a technical question, lends itself to more permanent and verifiable conclusions, IF we knew that the missile can't update, an IF because we are not privy to secret data are we, Then we can say that ASTER will not perform as advertised.  But it STILL might have value as a naval weapon system if it performs other duties well, and then the job of interpretation takes over, "was ASTER worth the investment of several billion Euros for the effect(s) achieved?"  Some would answer might answer "yes" in that it performed as an effective short-ranged SAM and was the first high-performance Euromissile of its class and that it provided valuable technical/managerial lessons for its partners.  Others would say "No", saying even if it was good as a short-ranged SAM or as an AShM it was a failure at its designed mission and that for a lesser cost the Europeans could have had Aegis...it IS debatable.  It's not just a matter of FACT.

 

And so to end, this that's your problem, you find your interpretations as FACT, when in truth they are interpretations of FACTS, and those interpretations are not always correct...only in Herald's mind are they infallible facts.

 

 
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Godofgamblers    Herald   1/26/2009 8:55:22 PM
Herald, I'm sure you can outthink me, outreason me on any few dozen subjects you choose. But on this subject, I suggest that you not treat it as an argument to win or lose, but rather as constructive criticism.
 
The loss of the French was a major blow to this forum, one that i'm sure everyone regrets, despite any posturing. The radical dowturn in volume is due to the loss of many long time posters.
 
Even if you don't agree with the PRC or French point of view, it is useful to know it, to debate against it, to understand it on the various issues that arise.
 
Having you leave would be a major loss to the forum too, H, so i'm not suggesting that in any way shape or form. I think , IMO, for whatever you think it's worth, as I said above you should take the comments of Heenanc (nom de plume of Herc? He = herc nc = necromancer?) and leave it at that. I see now that you have set your sights on DA. If a respected voice like his, a military man, a vetern of many battles, is a "poseur" or "third tier" poster, then I wonder who has "the right" to post here any more?
 
Respectfully,
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    I cannjopt have a meaningfruil discussion......    1/27/2009 12:17:40 AM




This specific ISSUE does not concern you.



 



Why are you, a person who's opinion I neither solicited nor asked, nor respect, trying to meddle where you don';t belong? 













Where we disagreed I told you there immediately and WHY, BLUNTLY.



 



I've seen and read your own venom here, SO STOW THE HYPOCRISY AS WELL.



 





 






 



I detest pretenders.






 



If you can't handle the truth, that is not my fault. That is your character fault.






 



Is that clear, list three-er?






 



Herald






 



 




Again, Herald, read what I said, practice what I said, then we can have a meaningful discussion. I do hope you learn that forums like this are supposed to be for learning and fun. Not ego contest or personal attack fest. Your behavior brings the quality of this site down a lot as I'm sure many would agree. Good luck to you...




-DA 
with a pretentious hypocrite.
 
I don't play games with fakers.
 
If you still don't get it, then I refer to an example directly, why open a topic where you entitle it:
 
"Obama to GOP(and a lot of SP posters) I won"
 
Translated into BLUNT English.
 
"My guy won, IN YOUR FACE, SP posters."
 
 
That is what you meant, you hypocrite you.
 
Now why should I treat you other than EXACTLY as you deserve?
 
You showed no civility there; and here you stuck your arrogant pompous morally unqualified nose into MY business.
 
Is THAT clear?
 
Herald 
 
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HERALD1357    I cannjopt have a meaningfruil discussion......    1/27/2009 12:27:47 AM

Herald, I'm sure you can outthink me, outreason me on any few dozen subjects you choose. But on this subject, I suggest that you not treat it as an argument to win or lose, but rather as constructive criticism.

 

The loss of the French was a major blow to this forum, one that i'm sure everyone regrets, despite any posturing. The radical dowturn in volume is due to the loss of many long time posters.

 

Even if you don't agree with the PRC or French point of view, it is useful to know it, to debate against it, to understand it on the various issues that arise.

 

Having you leave would be a major loss to the forum too, H, so i'm not suggesting that in any way shape or form. I think , IMO, for whatever you think it's worth, as I said above you should take the comments of Heenanc (nom de plume of Herc? He = herc nc = necromancer?) and leave it at that. I see now that you have set your sights on DA. If a respected voice like his, a military man, a vetern of many battles, is a "poseur" or "third tier" poster, then I wonder who has "the right" to post here any more?

 

Respectfully,

 

 

I got to tell you GoG that I have to consider your words. You have a right to speak on the subject. CREF what I just said to Darth.and consider why he is in my cross-hairs now.
 
He stuck his probiscus where it doesn't belong; in my business, and certainly where he cannot come at me with his pseudo-intellectual and pseudo-moral superiority. Just because he's been shot at or staffed a desk means nothing to me when he personally doesn't measure up at all.
 
I don't take instructions from hypocrites, the morally unqualified, and the ethically unjustified.
 
He is all of that described on this topic.
 
Herald   
 
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HERALD1357    Ahmmjm. Yes you can have a meaningful discussion.   1/27/2009 12:49:37 AM
Since unlike Darth, I can admit that I am wrong. It was Larry CJR who defended the nitwit Fletcher/
 
I am wrong

Sorry dude I don't defend Fletcher...you've got me confused with LaryCJR.  "MR Bright" that you are SUPPOSED to be, might have remembered that...oh Almighty Perfect One.


 CREF above. Must have made an impression on you since you remembered. I sort of lose track of the names after six montghs.


But that is a good point of take-off.  You see what you proclaim as "FACT" turns out to be interpretation.  Larry gave as good as he got in those debates...and in the end you weren't obviously the winner.  Because you all are debating an interpretation of the facts, was Fletcher or Halsey a decent commander?  The answer is NOT a fact a fact, it is an interpretation of facts...


Well about Fletcher you can debate if you want; the scholars who try to rewrite him are lining up, not that I find ANY of theior stuff credible  .  Halsey was an idiot, That judgement is NAILED down solid.


The ability of the ASTER Missile and its radar to share telemetry is a fact, whether or not that makes ASER any good or not is an interpretation.  You confuse the two things, and in your mind Interpretation BECOMES "fact."  It's not and many see that in you, even when you do not.


No I don't.  Now you stray into my field. Data is data. The results on that rocket are in, and it is a crap rocket. You want to know why, read my posts. 


It's obvious that Fletcher was NOT a "nitwit" BTW, he was a highly regarded and successful Naval Commander...only in Herald Land is someone of that caliber a nitwit...Herald, who as far as we can tell has never commanded any vessel larger than a power boat, nor any combat vessel larger than an RC battleship in a local pond...now has the Chutzpah to call Fletcher a Nitwit.  That?s your problem; you're convinced of your own ineffable correctness...as I say get over yourself.


Sorry, pending new evidence, his stupid decisions made at the time remain his stupid decisions.  I won't change opinion. Note the word OPINION based on available FACT.


Sure we can make a judgment that ASTER has serious flaws and that Fletcher was not as good as Commander "X" or made a number of mistakes, but they are judgments, and not merely facts, and it's obvious, that in the case of Fletcher, that that interpretation is contested and contestable...Only Herald can't see that.  ASTER, being a technical question, lends itself to more permanent and verifiable conclusions, IF we knew that the missile can't update, an IF because we are not privy to secret data are we, Then we can say that ASTER will not perform as advertised.  But it STILL might have value as a naval weapon system if it performs other duties well, and then the job of interpretation takes over, "was ASTER worth the investment of several billion Euros for the effect(s) achieved?"  Some would answer might answer "yes" in that it performed as an effective short-ranged SAM and was the first high-performance Euromissile of its class and that it provided valuable technical/managerial lessons for its partners.  Others would say "No", saying even if it was good as a short-ranged SAM or as an AShM it was a failure at its designed mission and that for a lesser cost the Europeans could have had Aegis...it IS debatable.  It's not just a matter of FACT.


Unless you did the math and talked to the guys who built that ASTER rocket?. About Aster there is NO argument  


And so to end, this that's your problem, you find your interpretations as FACT, when in truth they are interpretations of FACTS, and those interpretations are not always correct...only in Herald's mind are they infallible facts.


<
 
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Godofgamblers    Herald   1/27/2009 1:55:31 AM
What DA alluded to when he mentioned me is very true, Herald. Over the years we have been on the opposite side of almost every single topic, if i'm not mistaken. And yet not a harsh word was exchanged. There was even one thread which we participated in a couple years before you joined the forum , I beilieve, on whether France could defeat and occupy Egypt using its existing capability. It became rather heated because, obviously some of the French personalities you know only too well were involved, Bluewings and FS, and yet in the 100+ odd postings, not an uncivil word was exchanged.
I even look forward to crossing swords with DA... and my other opponents.... can you say the same? would they say the same about you?
 
In fact, loathe as I am to admit it, i have changed my mind on a few of the topics that i have debated with DA over the years. And isn't that the ultimate victory? To coolly debate someone and have him concede?
 
When it gets personal, no one will never ...ever... concede. Trust my experience.
 
My point is, you are a great thinker, debater, H: but you have the potential to be more : an educator.
 
Don't neglect that.
salam
k
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    When I can, GoG.    1/27/2009 2:20:15 AM
I find Darth to be a closed mind as well as a moral hypocrite.

I don't waste too much time with such people.
 
You do notice the very sharp difference in tone here in the various responses I give?
 
Peace.
 
Herald 
 
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DarthAmerica       1/27/2009 10:48:10 AM

I find Darth to be a closed mind as well as a moral hypocrite.




I don't waste too much time with such people.

 

You do notice the very sharp difference in tone here in the various responses I give?

 

Peace.


 

Herald 


That's fine. But take heed to the warnings and advice Herald. GoG, FS and even BW and I have all disagreed here. I've disagreed with GF, Softwar, Leroy and EW3 before too. It doesn't get personal and the few times it did, all of us were mature enough to squash it and move on WITHOUT all the vitriol. Has it ever occurred to you that you don't actually "win" debates where you are the only participant? You have not bested me or many others here. There is just a growing consensus on this forum that you don't behave in a manner that facilitates DEBATE. I don't care what "list" you think I'm on or if you disagree with me morally. Heck, I agree with torture and at one point wanted to completely wipe out all Islam from the Earth. Yet, inspite of these moral shortcomings, a good Muslim GoG and I can debate intelligently and because of that, at least partially, I've learned tolerance and now I look forward to every GoG post even if I disagree. If you think you can't learn from me or others or that you are smarter and have all the answers you are sadly mistaken. This is a shared experience and if you learn a little humility and respect for others views, even if you disagree, you could learn a lot. So, again Herald, ditch the hostility. Debate, support your points with fact or explain your opinion. But please, stop with the personal attacks and hostility toward others. Im extending an olive branch to you as are others I'm sure. Take it and lets move on with all these discussions. That way it can be thread topic centric rather than Herald vs Whomever centric.


-DA 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Herald   1/27/2009 12:20:30 PM
I don't think it is fair to single out Herald for criticism here. Allot of us get a little sideways in these debates. I apologize for insulting anybody in the past here (it is supposed to be fun and educational here) and I will endeavor to always stick to facts and sound analysis to carry my debate for me.
 
Herald is not the only one who should be thinking about the way he reacts to other's here, there are several of USguilty  including some who are telling Herald how culpable he is.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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DarthAmerica       1/27/2009 1:28:01 PM

I don't think it is fair to single out Herald for criticism here. Allot of us get a little sideways in these debates. I apologize for insulting anybody in the past here (it is supposed to be fun and educational here) and I will endeavor to always stick to facts and sound analysis to carry my debate for me.

 

Herald is not the only one who should be thinking about the way he reacts to other's here, there are several of USguilty  including some who are telling Herald how culpable he is.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky


Herald isn't the only one being criticized. He is just the only who refuses to acknowledge it and squash the beef. Read the responses and see for yourself. If Herald would accept our criticism, apologies and offer his own as well as agree to show mutual respect, then I think this matter is resolved.

-DA 
 
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