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Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer    1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM
I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light
 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 8:40:00 PM
But if you are saying that militarily they are building up for an aggressive offensive conflict with the west, I disagree. I could be wrong and I'm more than willing to listen to why and how. Thus far, I've read nothing compelling in that regard. Now I would NEVER insult your heritage and direct experience with the Chinese. Considering your history you know more than I do about the psychology. But I personally have not experienced it with Chinese I work with and these aren't students. That us not to say it doesn't exist, just that I've not had similar experience. 

I have the utmost respect for GoG, but in this case, he does not know chinese culture at the decision making level lioke some of us do.

If you blokes aren't prepared for war with china in 15-25 years time -  then you will pay a heavy price.

one thing that chinese elites love about  the west is the unswerving naievete about the goodness of people etc...  They on the other hand have a stalinist type view that they will sell you the rope upon which you eventually hang yourselves.

Do I fear for america and their lack of attention to detail on how they're getting played?  Absolutely.  I just hope that they get a few early warning signs and take charge a little more robustly.

Your country is getting played on a break.  Those with experience, know it, see it and don't want it to happen.  The NSA sees it and has been escalating the climate change for a while - State Dept however (under various POTUS) has played the foil.

We don't live in a Forrest Gump world where "life is like a box of chocolates" - China does not want a land of equal superpowers - it wants to be the superpower of old - and in real terms, the hyperpower that it has always considered it was. Anyone, and I mean anyone who does not know that the ruling and military elite have a retributive philosophy does not know chinese culture in any detail.  It's got nothing to do with right wing views (as I am politically the aust version of the US Democrats) - it's got everything to do with understanding what you're up against in 15 years time.  Geez, these people have not forgotten political "slights" from 2000 years ago.  
 
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Godofgamblers       1/27/2009 9:23:43 PM








?None of these comments describe the Chinese people I know;
they are cosmopolitan, globalized, travelers, free thinkers.


 


You are all describing a certain political elite and not the
new generation. I think they just may surprise all of you in time.


 


For every sin you heap on them, I can enumerate 10 or 100 of
my own people with regard to politics, religious intolerance, civil unrest,
suppression of minorities, etc.


 


I hope people reading this don't take this China bashing too seriously.?


 


 


I lived in China
for 8 years until recently and you have it, with respect, totally wrong.


 


I wish you didn?t but you do.


 


Look, I am British and its not the British who are going to
get it in the neck. If anything, Europe will probably emerge from any China v USA conflict relatively stronger
but the West as a whole will take a serious knock.


 


Quite simply, after living in China for years, I am trying to
warn Americans on this site about how the Chinese think and what to expect.


 


 
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Godofgamblers    gf0012   1/27/2009 9:56:56 PM
Gf0012, your point of view is interesting, since most in Aus would probably consider Indonesia a real and current threat before they would consider China one. I can give you a dozen reasons why Indo would pose a threat to you (illegal immigtration, political upheaval, famine, disasters etc which cause a massive refugee situation, terrorism, outright war over Papua, etc, confrontation over TimTim, and so on and so on), but these arguements about China seem a bit abstract to me.
If you were briefing decision-makers on threats to Aus, let's be frank: what would the main threat be: Indo or China?
 
 
 
(By the way, out of interest, have you ever read Fu Manchu? 
 
 
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       1/27/2009 10:53:17 PM
GoG,
 
I'll grant you your opinion being Asian, but you also know how China regards the rest of Asia, especially all of the shorter, 
dark skinned  Asians.  Japan occupies a special place in Chinese hearts, but still Asia gets a ranking over the white and
black devils from outside of the Chinasphere.  
 
DA, your Chinese coworkers are friendly to your face, but what do they do when your back is turned?  Copy data for transfer back home? How many of your Chinese friends went to watch the olympic flag run in SF?  How many of them got free rides by the PRC consulate to "root for China and defend the dignity of the motherland"?  And during Chinese new year, there are two very distinct celebrations, those put on by PRC people and those put on by Taiwanese people.  The PRC consulates fund the PRC CNY celebrations.  PRC thugs have been to the homes of Epoch Times editors and reporters and beaten them up and taken their laptops.  And at Dragon Boat celebrations, PRC thugs take pictures of FLG paraders and supporters and last year a PRC consulate member was found to have organized an attack on a FLG parade.
 
And you say China is just an ambitious rising power?  Are you that blind?  I suppose you see the wisdom of Chamberlain and the Vichy government as well.
 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 11:08:55 PM


If you were briefing decision-makers on threats to Aus, let's be frank: what would the main threat be: Indo or China?

China is a projected problem IMO.

Indonesia is not for a number of reasons.

Govt to Govt relations are good, for Indonesia to turn on Australia after all the financial assistance, govt assistance (drafting separation of powers legislation, redrafting a new constitution,. assistance in training govt trainees, assistance in assisting rebuild elements of the military (greenwater navy build issues etc...) then they would lose face amongst the neighbours - and we are the bigger power able to do a "janus" far faster than Indonesia can
We provide intel into Indonesia - we have a degree of finger on the pulse, we could read the signs earlier than prev
Indonesia is struggling to maintain cohesion, she does not need any distractions as it would give separatists the opportunity to develop an overt resistance
Indonesia is more concerned with deal with radical fundamentalists - and the army just as so - any swing to fundementalism and I suspect that the old javan empire mentality of the military would kick back in - they'll protect themselves 9and ipso facto the status quo of the state before they let religion take hold in "extremis"'
Plus numerous other reasons, but you get the thrust of my belief

China on the other hand is another issue.

I was on the China Task Force when Tiananmen blew up - there are a whole generation  of young chinese who think that Tiananmen was a myth - where they do not even recognise the famous image of the man stopping the tank - and where they believe that its a western photoshop (talk about irony!)
China has a series of unresolved claims which impact on over 15 countries - this includes the paracels, spratleys, north and south china sea territories under dispute with russia, japan and taiwan.   9 of the other claimants are RIMPAC neighbours and that would effect us the fact that these are resource potentials means that esp in the current climate, negotiation is a fading option
China does have a "string  of pearls" military philosophy - thats not benign politics
Everything  china is doing is about extending reach and containing the US in the PACRIM.  
China has regularly switched on and off the nationalism tap - if thats not a recent reminder of national socialism then I'll go "'he"
China does have a ruling elite mentality of "manifest destiny" - the average chinese may not care - but the govt regularly winds up the locals and implies that its a western envy, a western conspiracy to keep them locked up for another 200 years - and you will note how many chinese kids go feral and rabidly anti-american at any slight - if you don't believe me look at any youtube commentary where people challenge chinese achievements and question technology theft etc...  they come out of the woodwork spitting - that kind of rabid viciousness I haven't seen since the new generation of russian political recidivists who also run on the fuel of xenophobia.
Chinas veiled contempt for other asian countries - it reminds me of the arrogance of the french PM saying that the new european  members need to remember their manners.
 They're using trade to fuel up - their manipulation of the currency market should be one of those subtle hints for all.  They're playing soft and hard power, but using soft power to stay off the radar

Do I want this to happen? NO.  Do I think it will happen YES.

We're in a softpower phony war already.  They have the patience, your average westerner does not normally understand patience at all - and not in an oriental concept where it means "soon" and where "soon"" means anything from now to 10 years away. 


(By the way, out of interest, have you ever read Fu Manchu? 

Godofgamblers       1/27/2009 11:41:10 PM
Your comments are very interesting, gf0012. I know a bit about you and so i ascribe a lot of weight to your opinions. You are right, there is a lot of very positive stuff going on between Indo and Aus right now that the average Joe or Budi on the street doesn't know, like the Extradition Treaty that was signed and other treaties and cooperation agreements between our AF and Police Forces for everything from terrroism to illegal immigration.
 
I'm interested in seeing how things play out, but i still don't put China on the top of the list of dangers to world peace.
 
If you think the Chinese are the most xenophobic in Asia, you should re-consider: the Koreans are by far the worst. If they had power , they would make Tianamien look like a garage sale. North and South..... two sides of the same coin. The heavens help us if they ever unite! Perhaps we'll feel ourselves lucky then that we have the Chinese to keep them in check!
 
I mentioned Fu Manchu because, beside being a great read, it is quite funny to see the xenophobia directed at the Chinese. The "Yellow Peril"..... at a time when the western powers were ripping China apart and it wasn't a menace to anyone.
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 11:52:51 PM
If you think the Chinese are the most xenophobic in Asia, you should re-consider: the Koreans are by far the worst. If they had power , they would make Tianamien look like a garage sale. North and South..... two sides of the same coin. The heavens help us if they ever unite! Perhaps we'll feel ourselves lucky then that we have the Chinese to keep them in check!
I regard them as the most exenophobic because there is a greater cohort of them - numbers count. :)
I have witnessed Korean and Japanese racism as well, and well know that they are not pure as the driven snow 
But, china has financial, military and softpower clout, and at various vectors, greater influence than japan - and that magnifies fallout.

I've had my own relatives bitching over vietnamese and koreans, and in my own family I have a cousin who has a business on the mainland -  the other relatives regard that as reprehensible in light of what the Red Guard did to members of my family in the 60's.

I always felt sorry for my Moo Do Kwan master, he was Korean with a Japanese wife - both families disowned them. :) 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/28/2009 12:03:27 AM
I mentioned Fu Manchu because, beside being a great read, it is quite funny to see the xenophobia directed at the Chinese. The "Yellow Peril"..... at a time when the western powers were ripping China apart and it wasn't a menace to anyone.

 
If you want to look at the schizophrenia in the relationship between east and west, then look at Sun Yat Sen, Taft, Roosevelt, Wilson, Nixon, Kissinger, Clinton, Bush
 


 
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Godofgamblers       1/28/2009 1:25:12 AM
Your comments are very interesting, gf0012. I know a bit about you and so i ascribe a lot of weight to your opinions. You are right, there is a lot of very positive stuff going on between Indo and Aus right now that the average Joe or Budi on the street doesn't know, like the Extradition Treaty that was signed and other treaties and cooperation agreements between our AF and Police Forces for everything from terrroism to illegal immigration.
 
I'm interested in seeing how things play out, but i still don't put China on the top of the list of dangers to world peace.
 
If you think the Chinese are the most xenophobic in Asia, you should re-consider: the Koreans are by far the worst. If they had power , they would make Tianamien look like a garage sale. North and South..... two sides of the same coin. The heavens help us if they ever unite! Perhaps we'll feel ourselves lucky then that we have the Chinese to keep them in check!
 
I mentioned Fu Manchu because, beside being a great read, it is quite funny to see the xenophobia directed at the Chinese. The "Yellow Peril"..... at a time when the western powers were ripping China apart and it wasn't a menace to anyone.
 
 
 
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YelliChink       1/28/2009 2:03:47 AM
The question here is whether China, as a nation under current totalitarian commie rule, not individual Chinese, is a threat to free world.
 
Just read what those commies think:
 
military.club.china.com/data/thread/1011/2543/13/49/3_1.html
 
 
 
 
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