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Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer    1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM
I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light
 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 4:23:43 AM
than us hairy monkey westerners and baboon Africans (and those slanders are used by Chinese frequently).




at the government and military level they absolutely despise blacks.  "baboons" is being kind, I''ve heard much worse.  Still, the soviets used to refer to nearly everyone who wasn't russian/caucasian as a "black arse" - except for chinese who they sustain a continuing contempt for.

westerners in general seriously misunderstand the degree of contempt that the chinese oligarchy  (civil and military) hold for non chinese.

any nation that can whip up nationalistic fervour  so quickly (like they did with Japan last year and the olympics) is one to watch closely.

At a Govt level they feel as they have a right to be in those clubs that they actually despise (G8 etc...)  Thats why the UN  security council is their big lever. they can spoil, abstain and manipulate outcomes as much as they like because they see the  UN as a vehicle to manage their soft and hard power enemies.

 
 
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Godofgamblers       1/27/2009 4:59:01 AM
None of these comments describe the Chinese people I know; they are cosmopolitan, globalized, travelers, free thinkers.
 
You are all describing a certain political elite and not the new generation. I think they just may surprise all of you in time.
 
For every sin you heap on them, I can enumerate 10 or 100 of my own people with regard to politics, religious intolerance, civil unrest, suppression of minorities, etc.
 
I hope people reading this don't take this China bashing too seriously.
 
Surely you detected a change in recent years, gf0012.
 
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DarthAmerica       1/27/2009 10:38:57 AM

None of these comments describe the Chinese people I know; they are cosmopolitan, globalized, travelers, free thinkers.

 

You are all describing a certain political elite and not the new generation. I think they just may surprise all of you in time.

 

For every sin you heap on them, I can enumerate 10 or 100 of my own people with regard to politics, religious intolerance, civil unrest, suppression of minorities, etc.

 

I hope people reading this don't take this China bashing too seriously.

 

Surely you detected a change in recent years, gf0012.


100% concur based on my personal experience with the Chinese I work with. Both are brilliant engineers and good friends. I certainly don't detect an once of hostility toward the USA from them or the many Chinese we work with for manufacturing purposes. Thus far so far so good. To me, and I respect everyone else different view, I think some people take the potential for being a threat as a threat. The PRC is simply developing military capabilities in line with their political-economic interest. 


-DA 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 2:40:38 PM

None of these comments describe the Chinese people I know; they are cosmopolitan, globalized, travelers, free thinkers.
You are all describing a certain political elite and not the new generation. I think they just may surprise all of you in time.
For every sin you heap on them, I can enumerate 10 or 100 of my own people with regard to politics, religious intolerance, civil unrest, suppression of minorities, etc.

I hope people reading this don't take this China bashing too seriously.

Surely you detected a change in recent years, gf0012.
I have been very very specific.  I am part chinese, I have mainland relatives (who ares till terrified of the Govt after we had some 12 relatives murdered in the 60's because they were teachers, academics, scientists).  
The average chinese would not care - the govt, and the military have NEVER changed their corporate view - and in fact I am incredibly surprised that you think otherwise.  Talk to any of them for more than 2 hrs and it starts to come out - they CANNOT hide their hate and bigotry.  I'd say that in terms of absolute xenophobia and racism, chinese officials and the military elite are the worst I've come across.  They make the KKK  look like a bible socity.
If you don't see that the this racism and bigotry is still in place albeit hidden, then I seriously doubt that you have ever spoken to any chinese govt official at their level - and definitely no one in their military.  You would have to be wearing blinkers if you think that the local mainland youth cannot be manipulated far easier than any previous generation due to different processes.  How quickly did the Govt turn on and off anti-japanese and nationalistic switches at the olympics?  How quickly did they organise rabid frothing kids in Canberra during the olympic relay - thats a govt that easily controls emotions long range - and if you think that it's not representative, then I'm sorry to say "more fool you".  Welcome to Chamberlains view of the world.
 Speaking to your local university student or chinese restaurant staff is not a litmus test of this by ANY means.
 

 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 2:51:45 PM
and for goodness sake it's not "china bashing"

this view that we can sit around and do a kumbayah with the mainland ruling elite and military is just abject nonsense - they absolutely despise the west (and any chinese who don't subscribe by proxy)

this is not a game - its not some half assed intellectualised debate where we're wishin hopin prayin of "why can't we be friends" etc....  we're dealing with a government mentality that over generations, wearing different clothes, carrying different swords etc  has never resiled from the fundamental precept that they are the natural power entitled to rule.

your average chinese may not care - but they are not in power, they don't influence change (and look at how well the CCCP reacts to any pressure from the outside). 

My god man, if you think that the mainland chinese are going to walk away from what they see as 170 years of humiliation - then  you understand NOTHING about chinese culture and character.  This is not some university derived version of trivial pursuit, it's not some academic journey into utopia.  The ruling elite have very different aspirations to the disporia and even your average chinese struggling to survive.

wishing, hoping,  praying anything else is a complete separation of aspirations to reality.  You only need to look at how they continue to massage the locals, and manage the media.

I cannot believe that a serious academic is even debating this. 

 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/27/2009 3:00:34 PM

100% concur based on my personal experience with the Chinese I work with. Both are brilliant engineers and good friends. I certainly don't detect an once of hostility toward the USA from them or the many Chinese we work with for manufacturing purposes. Thus far so far so good. To me, and I respect everyone else different view, I think some people take the potential for being a threat as a threat. The PRC is simply developing military capabilities in line with their political-economic interest. 

Darth, how many "good chinese" and nice people have been arrested for espionage over the years?  Your own NSA reports point it out - its so bad that all US allies get an alert about the significance of this leak of intelligence through chinese lecturers, university students, people in senior positions.

They've all been "good chinese" - even when they get arrested or quietly sent back home once your security discovers that they've been sending more than money and MP3's home...

I've got chinese friends as well (naturally) - but thats not a security litmus test by any means - anyone involved in national security would fall over if that was presented as truth absurdim in defence of the issue.

We all (and I use the collective NATO "we" out of convenience) are aware that the significant leaks have come  from people who were seen as harmless and inoffensive.  Geez, that's been basic security ever since Walsingham perfected the art....
 
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gf0012-aust    fix this frigging software!   1/27/2009 3:05:16 PM

fixed after overlapped by image to left on original

100% concur based on my personal experience with the Chinese I work with. Both are brilliant engineers and good friends. I certainly don't detect an once of hostility toward the USA from them or the many Chinese we work with for manufacturing purposes. Thus far so far so good. To me, and I respect everyone else different view, I think some people take the potential for being a threat as a threat. The PRC is simply developing military capabilities in line with their political-economic interest. 

Darth, how many "good chinese" and nice people have been arrested for espionage over the years?  Your own NSA reports point it out - its so bad that all US allies get an alert about the significance of this leak of intelligence through chinese lecturers, university students, people in senior positions.

They've all been "good chinese" - even when they get arrested or quietly sent back home once your security discovers that they've been sending more than money and MP3's home...

I've got chinese friends as well (naturally) - but thats not a security litmus test by any means - anyone involved in national security would fall over if that was presented as truth absurdim in defence of the issue.

We all (and I use the collective NATO "we" out of convenience) are aware that the significant leaks have come  from people who were seen as harmless and inoffensive.  Geez, that's been basic security ever since Walsingham perfected the art....


 
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Scoobydo       1/27/2009 3:11:27 PM

?None of these comments describe the Chinese people I know; they are cosmopolitan, globalized, travelers, free thinkers.

 

You are all describing a certain political elite and not the new generation. I think they just may surprise all of you in time.

 

For every sin you heap on them, I can enumerate 10 or 100 of my own people with regard to politics, religious intolerance, civil unrest, suppression of minorities, etc.

 

I hope people reading this don't take this China bashing too seriously.?

 

 

I lived in China for 8 years until recently and you have it, with respect, totally wrong.

 

I wish you didn?t but you do.

 

Look, I am British and its not the British who are going to get it in the neck. If anything, Europe will probably emerge from any China v USA conflict relatively stronger but the West as a whole will take a serious knock.

 

Quite simply, after living in China for years, I am trying to warn Americans on this site about how the Chinese think and what to expect.

 

Yes, Chinese people are very affable, but if you haven?t seen the reality of what lies below the surface then it is fair to say that you have just scratched the surface.
 
Sigh...
 

 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    gf reply   1/27/2009 3:16:31 PM



100% concur based on my personal experience with the Chinese I work with. Both are brilliant engineers and good friends. I certainly don't detect an once of hostility toward the USA from them or the many Chinese we work with for manufacturing purposes. Thus far so far so good. To me, and I respect everyone else different view, I think some people take the potential for being a threat as a threat. The PRC is simply developing military capabilities in line with their political-economic interest. 



Darth, how many "good chinese" and nice people have been arrested for espionage over the years?  Your own NSA reports point it out - its so bad that all US allies get an alert about the significance of this leak of intelligence through chinese lecturers, university students, people in senior positions.




They've all been "good chinese" - even when they get arrested or quietly sent back home once your security discovers that they've been sending more than money and MP3's home...




I've got chinese friends as well (naturally) - but thats not a security litmus test by any means - anyone involved in national security would fall over if that was presented as truth absurdim in defence of the issue.




We all (and I use the collective NATO "we" out of convenience) are aware that the significant leaks have come  from people who were seen as harmless and inoffensive.  Geez, that's been basic security ever since Walsingham perfected the art....


GF,

C'mon I understand your point and I certainly agree the Chinese are an espionage threat. But how is that any different compared to all the other countries many of which are allies who also spy on us? y main point of disagreement is that while we agree on the issue of technology theft and espionage, we disagree that the motivation is directly hostile to the USA. The Chinese want to be a world power and in many ways they are. Politically and economically. But militarily they are barely capable of defending the main land and can't even retake Taiwan which is a stones throw away. If I were a PRC leader looking across the waters at Carriers and GPS SATs above I'd tell my spy services and Military to arm themselves accordingly IN CASE we have a fight. That to me is just being prudent. Seriously, how long could we expect them to rely on SKS and SA-2 for national defense? 

If you are saying their espionage is a threat. 100% agree. But if you are saying that militarily they are building up for an aggressive offensive conflict with the west, I disagree. I could be wrong and I'm more than willing to listen to why and how. Thus far, I've read nothing compelling in that regard. Now I would NEVER insult your heritage and direct experience with the Chinese. Considering your history you know more than I do about the psychology. But I personally have not experienced it with Chinese I work with and these aren't students. That us not to say it doesn't exist, just that I've not had similar experience. 

Regards
-DA 
 
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Nichevo       1/27/2009 7:34:54 PM
Darth, of course they are not going to OOTB head straight over to Coronado and start shelling.  They do have regional aggressive designs which WILL conflict with our sphere of influence. 
 
And DA,  as a Jew I don't go around telling every Christian I meet that Jesus was not the Son of God; likewise, perhaps the Chinese you meet don't feel the need to tell you that they are the Middle Kingdom Master Race.
 
I have great appreciation for the culture of China; but broadly speaking China today presents a problem that may have to be dealt with in the near to mid term future.  I am actually dating a Chinese girl - learning bits and pieces of Mandarin a la the "sleeping dictionary" concept - and she is actually a dissident - left after Tiananmen Square - but she is still a proud Chinese. 
 
It is no more savory to tar all Chinese with the dual-loyalties brush than it is, IMHO, to so tar Jews - your sensitivity is to be appreciated and I am not sure how this got to a hot war with you and Herald - but the nation of China, and everyone raised under their system of indoctrination (i.e. most all living Chinese), is likely to have some serious misapprehensions about us that could lead to conflict; and there may not be enough niceness we can exhibit to put them off their course.
 
I welcome China into the Family of Nations, as soon as they learn to deal properly with the rest of the world, which does not involve waving their ji-ji in our faces (learned that one early http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emembarrassed.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />).
 
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