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Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer    1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM
I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light
 
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gf0012-aust       1/24/2009 3:39:01 AM
Darth, years ago I worked for an State Dept approved Australian military cable and connector supplier - I'd just come off the Collins project and we had a cold approach by a chinese guy offering to build us array cables for 1/30th the cost of whatever we were currently being supplied with (from the US)  All he wanted was an offcut of a sample hydrophone or array cable so that they could get their specs "right".  My boss left the room to take a call and I was left alone with this "vendor".  His opening line was - why do you work for this white sdchitt when you can get a mucjh better job helping your homeland""  quickly followed by, "why work with the losing side?"

both of my responses aren't repeatable.  the issue is that he was confident enough to be transparent, and that he clearly dropped the smiley happy-happy merchant face and got down to real business as soon as the gwailo  left the room.

State issued a report not that long ago indicating how extensive they have breached US security - and they don't necessarily do it by stealth - in a lot of times, like with me, they ask straight out - and when you say no, they move to the next likely player.  By attrition, and by the fact that a lot of companies are clueless about security (Universities and Institutes being the worst) they are walking off with your crown jewels.  They don't want parity, they want to redress 170 years of what they see as western humiliation and a lack of respect.  Your average chinese supermarket owner won't give a toss - but there are a whole pile of others (uni students, graduates etc ) who get directed to take up courses of value to the state.

The horse has already bolted in that sense, but to ignore the national humiliation that a lot of chinese feel is madness.  There were just as many chinese cheering during 911 as there were arabs....

 
 
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HERALD1357    As I said.......abiout some posters.    1/24/2009 12:21:00 PM
Clueless.
 
Herald
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    GF Reply   1/24/2009 4:13:51 PM

Darth, years ago I worked for an State Dept approved Australian military cable and connector supplier - I'd just come off the Collins project and we had a cold approach by a chinese guy offering to build us array cables for 1/30th the cost of whatever we were currently being supplied with (from the US)  All he wanted was an offcut of a sample hydrophone or array cable so that they could get their specs "right".  My boss left the room to take a call and I was left alone with this "vendor".  His opening line was - why do you work for this white sdchitt when you can get a mucjh better job helping your homeland""  quickly followed by, "why work with the losing side?"




both of my responses aren't repeatable.  the issue is that he was confident enough to be transparent, and that he clearly dropped the smiley happy-happy merchant face and got down to real business as soon as the gwailo  left the room.




State issued a report not that long ago indicating how extensive they have breached US security - and they don't necessarily do it by stealth - in a lot of times, like with me, they ask straight out - and when you say no, they move to the next likely player.  By attrition, and by the fact that a lot of companies are clueless about security (Universities and Institutes being the worst) they are walking off with your crown jewels.  They don't want parity, they want to redress 170 years of what they see as western humiliation and a lack of respect.  Your average chinese supermarket owner won't give a toss - but there are a whole pile of others (uni students, graduates etc ) who get directed to take up courses of value to the state.




The horse has already bolted in that sense, but to ignore the national humiliation that a lot of chinese feel is madness.  There were just as many chinese cheering during 911 as there were arabs....




 
GF,

First let me clear something up just to make sure we are on the same page. I agree with you about the danger of the activities you discussed. I also acknowledge China's growing military capability. I acknowledge that a shooting war with them would be a serious challenge. However, all things considered, including the Chinese psychology you described. Does this make China an "Enemy" with all the implications thereof for people like you and I? In which case I disagree with your opinion. Or would it be more like China is a competitor, potentially dangerous, certainly willing to stand up for their own interest but not outright hostile or actively planning to initiate a conflict with the United States. Which is my point of view.

I just want to be sure we actually have a disagreement rather than a different way of saying a similar thing. Scooby, Softwar and Nan feel free to respond as well please. Also, if you do think China is an "enemy" with all the implications of that word, what would you propose in brief that the USA and Allied nations do about the PRC? I only ask because some of the comments on SP seem to suggest we should just let loose with the Tridents now and get it over with. My interpretation of the threads intent was to question the more extreme points of view such as or similar to the one mentioned by me above.

-DA 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/24/2009 5:04:44 PM
Or would it be more like China is a competitor, potentially dangerous, certainly willing to stand up for their own interest but not outright hostile or actively planning to initiate a conflict with the United States. Which is my point of view.

I just want to be sure we actually have a disagreement rather than a different way of saying a similar thing. Scooby, Softwar and Nan feel free to respond as well please. Also, if you do think China is an "enemy" with all the implications of that word, what would you propose in brief that the USA and Allied nations do about the PRC? I only ask because some of the comments on SP seem to suggest we should just let loose with the Tridents now and get it over with. My interpretation of the threads intent was to question the more extreme points of view such as or similar to the one mentioned by me above.
Unless there is a complete change in how the ruling and military elite think (and there is 5000 years of history to prove otherwise) - China WILL be a military threat.  As night follows day it will happen.  There is a singular determination to humiliate those western powers which have "humiliated" china in the last 170 years.  It's a combination of sophisticated racism and revenge.

A military option as in letting everything "fly" is not an option, and it invites a whole other burden of moral and political fallout (which again, is a western issue and one which a lot of chinese see as a weakness of west thinking)
 
Change must be aggressive in taming the cultural arrogance, in neutralising the current govt and military leaders - and at the same time there needs to be some hubris management.

eg, there is an irony in that the chinese see that they have had their own dreams  and potential stolen from them by the very power which they regard as having built on the back of chinese labourers.  the trans-national railway, california (as the worlds 5th-6th largest economy) are seen as chinese contributions.  The extremists say that it reinforces that you kill the cub at birth, as this cub (USA)  grew up too fast and early and didn't pay respect to the alpha lion.  It's a hair brained view of history, but it has currency amongst quite a few.  Scratch them long enough and the anti-americanism comes out.

This is a long war (and like early WW2 I see it as a phony "'precursor" war in many ways).  The US does not want to be fighting on 2 fronts in 25 years time, as I suspect that for radical islamic fundamentalists and chinese generals, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  We're already seeing the beginnings of it now.  In 25 years time?

Congress needs to wake up - the only thing that Chinese govts throughout time have respected is military strength - they've never stopped believing that they "own" moral and cultural strength
 
 
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8631888       1/25/2009 1:01:25 AM

http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/images/books/pnm_pb_cover.jpg" width="224" />
And here is a link backing up mine. Happy reading. I've read yours and I was there too at the end of the Cold War. So it's not a matter of you or I being right or wrong. It's an opinion. I assure you I can support mine as vigorously as you. I KNOW that the DoD and defense industry have tried to make the PRC fit the Soviet mold. I lived it. WHy do you think we have so much controversy when people like SecDef Gates come along? Or when F-22 production is capped? Or do you really think F-22's are built for bombing Taliban. It's right in your face. 
Think About It

-DA 
f22?  LOL you fvcking stupic Americans scary shit?
Welcome those dumb imbecile f22 TARGET DRONE!!!! hahahaha
 
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Scoobydo       1/25/2009 3:06:32 AM
The way to deal with China is economically and politically.
 
The political option is going to be almost impossible because the Chinese government has fostered such
extreme Chinese nationalism among its people.  Any criticism of the Chinese government is perceived by Chinese people
as a criticism of China.
 
The great Chinese weakness is its exchange rate. The Chinese government sells RMB and buys foreign 
currency to keep the RMB low, through an exchange in Shenzhen if my memory serves me correct
(ever wondered how the $1.3 Billion in foreign reserves got into the Chinese government's hands?).
 
It does not allow the RMB to float and so keeps Chinese exports at a an artificially low price and foreign imports
at an artificially high price . I have looked at a recent graph showing how much RMB the Chinese government is having
to spend to keep the RMB's value down and  it was recently rising at an alarming rate.
 
Obama has already taken a harder line on this. 
 
 
***p://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/75d83aca-e975-11dd-9535-0000779fd2ac.html
 
"President Obama?s choice for Treasury secretary, who told a Senate nomination hearing on Thursday that
China was ?manipulating? the renmnbi. Mr Geithner?s blunt tone appeared to indicate a more confrontational
approach towards China on economic issues...
 
...Mr Geithner?s comments were also criticised in strong terms by prominent academics in China. ?This is a sign
of his immaturity and his inability to do such an important job,? said Shen Dingli, professor of American studies
at Fudan University."
 
The great American weakness is that it has been, to a certain extent, 'abusing' its position of having the world's reserve currency by running such huge trade imbalances with the rest of the world with the result that a 1/2 to 2/3 of all US currency is outside the USA being used as foreign reserves and used in international trade transactions. If that currency ever makes its way home then the USA's economy will be crippled with extremely high levels of inflation. The Chinese government is not unaware of this concept.
 
To understand the concept, imagine the USA as having been issuing cheques for real goods and services from the rest of the world that have never been cashed. 

 
 
 
 
 
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warpig       1/25/2009 10:14:38 AM
Wow!  That brief interruption above was almost **TOO** convenient.  It's posts like that in threads like this that make me wonder sometimes if maybe someone intentionally mimics being some stereotypically insipid "Chinese" poster, just to try to slander them.  I mean, c'mon, the almost comically broken pidgeon-English, the baby-whining insults empty of any real content, the obvious display of complete ignorance regarding military reality--they all add up to either some pathetic loser from China or some American trying to make the Chinese look bad.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       1/25/2009 1:06:30 PM

Wow!  That brief interruption above was almost **TOO** convenient.  It's posts like that in threads like this that make me wonder sometimes if maybe someone intentionally mimics being some stereotypically insipid "Chinese" poster, just to try to slander them.  I mean, c'mon, the almost comically broken pidgeon-English, the baby-whining insults empty of any real content, the obvious display of complete ignorance regarding military reality--they all add up to either some pathetic loser from China or some American trying to make the Chinese look bad.

 
When I see those kinds of commentsmade by our "interjector" I walk straight on by - it's pretty damn obvious that it's a spoiler....:) 

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       1/27/2009 12:54:38 AM
1. Herald; have you been taking Chinese lessons? 
2. DA, you kinda being a "tiao fen gong" for the pro-China side.  You make comparisons about moder
economic and geopolitical competition.  What you don't understand is that China has always seen itself as the 
"guardians of heaven" and we are the barbarian horde they keep out.  The rest of East Asia is only slightly better
than us hairy monkey westerners and baboon Africans (and those slanders are used by Chinese frequently).
In every treaty China signed with the foreign powers before and after the Opium wars, the Chinese copy of the contract
addressed each party as "barbarians".
 
China has always felt wronged not just because of the Opium war but because they lost to those barbarians, despite all
of the sneering about the lack of a proper society, technology, etc by those barbarians.  And they intend to get us.
Also, in the Chinese press and books, there has been much examination of Nazi era policies and German tactical techniques.
The Chinese admire the Jews for their survivability, intelligence, etc but also have joined the "banking conspiracy" bandwagon.  Add jealousy that they don't have any similar influence.  So far they've only managed to land occasional "guest observer" status at the most recent Bilderberg conferences.
 
And what adds to the problem is the belief that even after you've died, your relatives and friends can send you money that they've earned on Earth.  So Chinese decision makers and power players can indeed benefit in 10 or 100 years from the day that China punishes and enslaves the west, making itself powerful and wealthy, and their descendants can send wealth into Heaven from Earth.
 
 
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HERALD1357    Yes.   1/27/2009 1:04:33 AM
Nowhere near fluent.
 
"Know your competitor" is akin to "know your enemy" in Chinese.
 
Herald
 
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