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Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer    1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM
I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light
 
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YelliChink       1/21/2009 12:46:25 AM

As i said in my post its 8 out of 9 top party leaders are engineers according to newsweek, not its president, and they are also the top leaderships in China, which also happen to be hu jintao top advisers,

Chinese human right records yes its bad and definetely need working on, but isn't it the case for most of major developing nations in the world?, why china its the only one in the spotlights, like the gujarat muslim massacre in india, which pretty much sanctioned by the local government,  the indian instution of caste is another example of gross human right violations, in which lower caste people is still called the untouchables, and did very menial and polluting work related to bodily decay and dirt, indonesia is another example of a country with a disgraful human right records, and religion violence, and your country itself is in disgrace forever by allowing torture for POWs

 


Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding
 
Chinese racism alert.
 
This guy is HIGHLY possible to be a PRC troll, people on CCPCPD payroll or just a stupid useful idiot.
 
Most Chinese don't know sh!t about India, and they look down upon India. Instead, I LIVE with Indians, WORK with Indian and my boss is from India. Indians never deny that they have caste problem in their society, albeit the law bans practice of it. However, Indians recognize that they don't have resources to deal the problem in a timely and nonviolent way, unlike commies, who always choose rapid social engineering regardless of how people like it or not.
 
A lot of Chinese will repeat the same kind of ignorance simply because they 1. never pay attention to anything about India and 2. feel superior when talk down on India with things like that. They don't seem to realize that peasants, migrate workers, and "rural residents" are not in better situation than untouchables of India. The irony is that people from inner provinces are openly discriminated by both government institution and "urban residents" of coastal cities. Compare caste in India, which is historic and illegal, and discrimination of dual residency (rural and urban) in China, which is institutionalized and actively enforced, well, that's just the FACT.
 
There are also religious violence in China. Instead of Hindu vs Islam, it is Atheist against all religion in China. In short, all the problems of India existed in China and are worse. However, Indians have some form of effective democracy, while Chinese are still under the jack boots of commies. Indians can reform peacefully under democratic system, though slowly, while Chinese have no right whatsoever but choice between rebel and sheep. More and more Chinese are choosing to rebel, and we'll see how it goes.
 
This forum is no racist, just Anglo-centric and, most of the time, don't really know how different people think. There are Indian, Albanian, Romanian, German, Blacks, Israeli, Turk, posting on this forum peacefully without any problem. It is commies trolls who need to look at themselves to see what kind of thing they are.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       1/21/2009 1:04:01 AM
Quite a few ballsy PRC posters coming on line.  All of you including analdestroyer will enjoy
this little news item:
 
 
China has no intention of being free and after a large amount of intellectuals issued a letter asking for real reform, the CCP puts out a statement saying that China will not be deceived by the empty promises of free press, publicly elected officials, separation of powers, etc.  And at least one of the intellectuals is now jailed.
 
And this video shows how bad, dirty and evil the Chinese leaders are:
 
 


 
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lurker       1/21/2009 4:27:56 AM
You get what you spew : /.
 
While I have to accept you as gay and can't lynch you (which I wouldn't have anyways), that doesn't mean I have to like it, and I am free to express my distaste for your orientation... all the more so on the internet really.
 
 
This is a conservative site, and you must take into account that a probable majority of regular posters here have conservative views. They may support more directly damaging attacks against China concerning how hypothetical situations. I'm fairly sure that most you talk to on here would not advocate doing this tomorrow. All the expressions of hostility i've seen towards China have been towards its current form of government, and the way it goes about things. Unless you are a Chinese government official or ultra-nationalist Chinese, it shouldn't really bother you.
 
Free market vs Gov't control is hit and miss really. The market is great when its in good times, and gov't intervention may be needed in bad times. History has not shown good results for pre-dominantly government controlled economies, that's all. Any wealth from colonization in Europe was probably wiped out by the end of WW2, when much of Europe was rubble., so moot argument.
 
The industries you state are being nationalized aren't intended to stay nationalized. Off the top of my head, I remember hearing that the financial industry crisis was created through deregulation of the financial industry, allowing bad loans to people with no real means based on a hope the economy would forever go up and up and up (unrealistic). So isn't the heavy regulation really just a return? There are surely others on here that could explain this for or against what i've stated better than I could.
 
The Chinese people aren't involved in the decision process, so whether they are a nation of learners or not is irrelevant, the heads will do what they must to maintain power... in good times and bad. I havn't seen any reall moves towards a true democracy. I've seen a move towards capitalism, but there is still one party controlling the country permanently.
 
It seems you use this B2 comment over the 3 gorges dam as the poster of your argument. This is a valid tactic of total war, and one which would probably be very effective. Depending on the context, this is not hostile at all.
 
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lurker       1/21/2009 11:51:42 AM
You get what you spew : /.
 
While I have to accept you as gay and can't lynch you (which I wouldn't have anyways), that doesn't mean I have to like it, and I am free to express my distaste for your orientation... all the more so on the internet really.
 
 
This is a conservative site, and you must take into account that a probable majority of regular posters here have conservative views. They may support more directly damaging attacks against China concerning how hypothetical situations. I'm fairly sure that most you talk to on here would not advocate doing this tomorrow. All the expressions of hostility i've seen towards China have been towards its current form of government, and the way it goes about things. Unless you are a Chinese government official or ultra-nationalist Chinese, it shouldn't really bother you.
 
Free market vs Gov't control is hit and miss really. The market is great when its in good times, and gov't intervention may be needed in bad times. History has not shown good results for pre-dominantly government controlled economies, that's all. Any wealth from colonization in Europe was probably wiped out by the end of WW2, when much of Europe was rubble., so moot argument.
 
The industries you state are being nationalized aren't intended to stay nationalized. Off the top of my head, I remember hearing that the financial industry crisis was created through deregulation of the financial industry, allowing bad loans to people with no real means based on a hope the economy would forever go up and up and up (unrealistic). So isn't the heavy regulation really just a return? There are surely others on here that could explain this for or against what i've stated better than I could.
 
The Chinese people aren't involved in the decision process, so whether they are a nation of learners or not is irrelevant, the heads will do what they must to maintain power... in good times and bad. I havn't seen any reall moves towards a true democracy. I've seen a move towards capitalism, but there is still one party controlling the country permanently.
 
It seems you use this B2 comment over the 3 gorges dam as the poster of your argument. This is a valid tactic of total war, and one which would probably be very effective. Depending on the context, this is not hostile at all.
 
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Softwar       1/21/2009 11:52:21 AM


Yes i admit china human right records is deplorable and definetely needs working on, but as i mentioned in reply to other poster, china is not the only one capable of horrible shit, most other major developing economies suffer the same problem,especially with its treatment of minorities, eg: India, Indonesia, and yet only china is in the spotlight

 

You obviously are very ignorant about the "slave labor" issue in China. The so-called "slave labors" are peasants who enjoy their "slave labor" work very much because they make five times more money working these jobs than farming. back home.



Again, you can not understand China's society from your western developed world perspective. Go read some American newspapers from early 1900's; read some books published during the progressive movement. And you'll understand that the American economy was very much built on "slave labor" back then just like what China is going through right now. Progress takes time and China is behind the West in its general development.



What would your alternative be for "slave labor"? Get rid of the jobs and let them starve? Or try the socialist utopia thing again? Oh wait, that didn't work out so well.



China's development road is a success. Facts speak louder than words.

 



 

Once again - you avoid the laogai issue by simply saying that the PRC human rights record is terrible.  It's not just human rights but political rights.  Any movement toward political freedom - or multiparty operations - is punishable by a long term stay in the laogai - if not a bullet in the head.  This kind of oppression is what keeps China backwards.  Concentration camps are a symptom of a backward - totalitarian - society.
 
Labor rights - e.g. slave labor is not defined by the penny rate wages you pay the masses but the no wages you pay prisoners in the laogai work camps.  They dig coal - they build toys for export - they manufacture goods and produce services.  The PAP makes a ton of money off that.  The use of mass prison labor for major economic output is a symptom of a backward - totalitarian - society.
 
You have a very poor understanding of China as it exists today - no doubt racked up by the limited nature of your education system which will not show you the whole truth - good and bad.  You live in an Empire - not a nation.  It is held together by the belt of the PLA and the buckle is the PAP.  A single mishap can bring the empire to a state of crumbling civil war.  We in the west have invested much in keeping China stable - even refusing good economic deals with others in order to fuel your export driven society. 

While the PRC may have an understanding of technology - and keep in mind - Nazi (facist) states are frequently very advanced in technological terms - you have a 3rd century mentality when it comes to runing a modern society.  This is the cause of most of the internal problems in China today and will be the final downfall of the empire itself.
 
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Softwar    2 points for Analdestroyer to Consider   1/21/2009 12:08:05 PM
And do think before you post....
 
Nuclear proliferation -
Pakistani Dr. Khan sold Chinese plans to build nuclear weapons to Lybia.  We know this to be true because the Lybians came clean about their WMD programs and turned over the Chinese blueprints to us.  The source of such proliferation is not Pakistan but the PRC.  That - in itself - is the sign of not only a stupid move but a dangerous one as well. 
 
The US has discouraged and even threatened our allies that have started or attempted nuclear weapons programs.  Taiwan, Japan and South Korea are all still non-nuke.  We even imposed sanctions on India for its nuclear weapons development.
 
China - on the other hand - is the source of nuclear weapons designs, materials and even whole systems to Pakistan and North Korea.
 
Outright calls to War -
Gen. Xiong - 2nd in command of the PLA - threatened to nuke Los Angeles.  He did so openly and in public.  Several other PLA Generals have also made similar threats.  Here in the US - a line officer making such threats would be immediately removed from command.  Gen. Xiong was promoted.  Again - that is the sign of a paranoid and dangerous government.
 
And you wonder why we are "so hostile"?  Perhaps you need to ask the same question of yourself and your Empire.
 
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gf0012-aust       1/22/2009 12:28:43 AM
As I indicated before - we estimate 22m, it's already 10m from 3 months impact and there's 11 months to go of declining exports

28m per annum, plus the creeping chaos as an extra 22m are added, no social support system, the one child system impacting up support for the elders, unskilled itinerants returning home, and an even greater divide from an outnumbered young aspirational female population who have not been attracted to local "product".....

it's the collateral impacts that will be the head turners here - not a chinese national deficits  on its own... 
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China's economic growth slumps to 7yr low

Posted 1 hour 53 minutes ago 
Updated 
1 hour 54 minutes ago

China's economic growth slumped to 6.8 per cent last quarter, dragging down the pace of expansion for all of 2008 to a seven-year low of 9.0 per cent as the full force of the global financial crisis struck home.

Fourth-quarter gross domestic product growth, measured from a year earlier, dropped from the 9.0 per cent clip of the July-September quarter and undershot market expectations of a 7.0 per cent reading.

The slowdown snapped a five-year streak of double-digit growth that has turned China into the third-largest economy in the world after the United States and Japan.

"The international financial crisis is deepening and spreading with continuing negative impacts on the domestic economy," the National Bureau of Statistics said in a statement accompanying the release of the figures.

Many economists believe the economy will expand by no more than 5-6 per cent this year, which would be the weakest performance since 1990.

Others expect the Government to hit its target of 8 per cent growth as a 4 trillion yuan ($894 billion) stimulus package and much easier monetary policy kick in.

The figures were consistent with recent data showing falling power consumption and back-to-back declines in both exports and imports as the bottom fell out of the world economy.

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Scoobydo       1/22/2009 4:43:46 AM
I lived in China for 8 years until recently.
 
The Chinese see the USA and the West as natural enemies. It is indoctrinated into them.
 
Make no mistake, they would destroy the USA and the West if they could.

Alarming and depressing but true.
 
Don't be fooled by the smiles and don't be fooled by a poster in the pay of the PRC like this.
 
"its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light"
 
It is also quite rare for the Chinese media to portray the West in a positive light but Chinese people
don't lose any sleep about that. 
 
 

 

 
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DarthAmerica    SHort Answer   1/22/2009 3:01:03 PM

I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control?by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US

you should read this article on newsweeklink
its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light

Some of the Hostility is due to competing interest but a lot more of it is due to the end of the Cold War. Our defense establishment  is/was designed around the idea of fighting a near peer competitor in global giant WW 2 style battles. After the Soviets fell there was the massive downsizing of the U.S. Military and this threatened a lot of jobs as well as traditional thinking about what war is now. So there was a rush to vill the void left by the Soviets with an enemy we were already familiar with and prepared to fight. China filled that void in a lot of minds and thus the DoD went charging ahead with a determination that it was preparing to fight China and completely ignored the fact that the most serious threats weren't large nation states at near peer level but in fact asymmetric non-state entities. When we got 9/11 it brought things back into focus somewhat about who the enemy really is. While China is clearly a competitor and could potentially be a threat to the USA, it is not an enemy right now and is far less likely to go to war with the USA than many other nations if one understands the political, military and economic realities of a USA vs PRC conflict.


-DA 
 
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Softwar       1/22/2009 4:26:12 PM



Some of the Hostility is due to competing interest but a lot more of it is due to the end of the Cold War. Our defense establishment  is/was designed around the idea of fighting a near peer competitor in global giant WW 2 style battles. After the Soviets fell there was the massive downsizing of the U.S. Military and this threatened a lot of jobs as well as traditional thinking about what war is now. So there was a rush to vill the void left by the Soviets with an enemy we were already familiar with and prepared to fight. China filled that void in a lot of minds and thus the DoD went charging ahead with a determination that it was preparing to fight China and completely ignored the fact that the most serious threats weren't large nation states at near peer level but in fact asymmetric non-state entities. When we got 9/11 it brought things back into focus somewhat about who the enemy really is. While China is clearly a competitor and could potentially be a threat to the USA, it is not an enemy right now and is far less likely to go to war with the USA than many other nations if one understands the political, military and economic realities of a USA vs PRC conflict.
 

-DA 

I tend to disagree considering I was there during the transition from USSR to present.  First, the PRC was viewed as an ally against the USSR right up and through Bush 1.  The proof in the pudding is the co-opeartion between the US and Chinese military which included joint programs such as a joint Super-7 fighter jet and the joint signit sites manned by PLA and US intelligence staff - Korla and Quintai.
 
It was not the fall of the Soviet Union that changed this but Tiananmen Square massacre that ended the military cooperation between Beijing and the US.  Please note the testimony of Dr. Byren to Congress on this matter.
 
 
The seed change in relations also brought with it a variety of other incidents that fueled hostility between Beijing and Washington such as the successful funneling of illegal money into the 1996 Presidential campaign by the PLA MID - an operation led by PLA Gen. Xiong.  We also had China dropping ballistic missiles off the Taiwan coast in March 1996 - not exactly the nicest act - followed by Gen. Xiong's threat to nuke LA - for which he was promoted to #2 in the PLA chain of command.
 
Then there are the 2000+ Chinese Army front companies operating in the US performing illegal intelligence.  We also had the incidents of stolen missile technology, stolen satellite technology - led by Gen. Ding, and Gen. Shen at COSTIND.  This led to the 123 counts of national security violations posted against Hughes - something that eventually led to the destruction of Hughes and Loral as aerospace defense companies.  We even stolen rad hardened encryption chips out of the 1996 Loral satellite launch failure in China.
 
We had China supplying weapons to Saddam - including offers to sell ballistic missiles (the Shangdong Arts and Crafts company visit to Baghdad - a company staffed entirely by PLA officers who were missile experts).  The Tiger Song air defense network sold to Saddam in violation of the UN embargo on such sales.
 
We also have the sale of various weapons - including ballistic missile nose cones, cruise missiles, torpedoes, mines, chemical weaponry from Beijing to Iran.  Several PRC companies have been sanctioned repeatedly for the sales of WMD systems to Tehran.
 
None of this includes the operations to arm proxy nations such as Pakistan and North Korea with nuclear weapons.  This operation came apart when the Chinese blue prints for a nuclear weapon were turned over to us by the Lybians.  The Lybians bought the plans from Dr. Khan of Pakistan - however the point of origin for these plans was clearly Beijing.
 
So Darth - your answer is not complete nor correct because the Pentagon wanted to continue military to military contacts and even joint projects with China (see letter to PLA Gen. Ding from Secretary of Defense William Perry).  This mis-perception on your part is based on propaganda and not backed by the facts.  I have posted links here to souces which back my assertions.
 
 
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