Why all the hostilities towards China?

Military History \| How To Make War \| Wars Around the World	Rules of Use	How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Armed Forces of the World Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page

Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer 1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM

I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light

Quote Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 NEXT

analdestroyer 2/24/2009 1:44:57 AM

I believe that my point about the Indo gov't was explained in later posts. ie: the corruption stuff, that is not a responsible, accountable action that a people should accept. ( or even have to expeariance)

Suharto's Indo gov't fermented anti-Chinese sentiment and was the instigator of anti-Chinese riot. I think Nichevo's right, this guy is so ignorant that he thinks we are as ignorant as he is.

He fail to undersand what commie regime is all about.

He fail to understand how dictators think.

He fail to understand what's the life under an authoritarian, a totalitarian or a despotic regime.

He fail to understand the damage of WG to Chinese culture, economy and education.

He fail to understand the relation between commies and recent surge of extreme Chinese nationalism (i.e. the Chinese should be master race and dominate the world).

Thus, EPIC FAIL as Nichevo said.

First of all do you actually ignorant to the fact that suharto basically build indonesia from scratch from the ashes of political conflicts, economic collapse and social breakdown of the late-1950s and mid-1960 he revived the Indonesian economy from its near collapsed state of the mid-1960s. It grew by an average 7 per cent for 25 years, reducing the proportion of Indonesians in the "very poor" category from 65% in the mid-1960s to 7% in 1990, a significant manufacturing sector was established and a sizable middle class appeared. Suharto is responsible for Indonesian self-sufficiency in rice production by the mid-1980s, basic education to almost all citizens, and a successful family planning program

Yes of course i understand that anti chinese riot was his doing as well as kopassus's, that was at the end of his power this incident happened, and this was the phase that they have to go through from dictatorship to democracy, just like i said before, change and democracy in a developing nations is often marked by bloodshed and instability, and some nations did not survive this transformation.

Now let me judge your report card as well

You failed to understand that democracy may worked on some countries, but counter productive in another

You failed to understand not all dictators are get rich quick artists, most are patriot, most actually worked hard for the stability and prosperity for their people

you failed to understand that in some circumtances in developing nations strong leader with iron fist is what exactly is needed to get his country in order, you don't believe me?, see the chaos in iraq, do you think democracy worked well there so far? see how the US is actually begging for another Saddam to take control in Iraq

man im tired, let me continue this after i have my evening run

Quote Reply

YelliChink 2/24/2009 2:40:25 AM

Now let me judge your report card as well

You failed to understand that democracy may worked on some countries, but counter productive in another

You failed to understand not all dictators are get rich quick artists, most are patriot, most actually worked hard for the stability and prosperity for their people

man im tired, let me continue this after i have my evening run

Got tired so easily? That tells me about your intellectual capacity. You simply believe in every propaganda shovelled into your ass. Apparently you don't know nothing about what extreme Chinese nationalists think about anti-Chinese riots. The problem with Indonesia is that your understanding is purely out of Suharto's propaganda machine. If Indo was so great under Suharto, why is it still a relatively poorer country than, say, Malaysia? And why Malaysian gov't is deporting Indo "illegals" en mass? If Indonesia's education is so successful, why is it not a major tech hub in the world? You know, AMD has a plant in Malaysia, not in Indonesia. IThe less of two evils is sometimes better solution, but it doesn't make it less of evil, not to mention corruption, impotent and completely ineptitude. After all, dictatorship of South Korea, Taiwan and Spain was successful, and it paved the way to democratic reform of these countries bloodless. It takes a utterly uneducable moron to say that certain minority should be sacrificed in order for the society to advance. The only thing that has proved over and over again in SE Asia is that large Chinese population plus Free economy equals money making machine. Chinese plus communism is fail, and any other race in SE Asia with communism are total failure. You, unfortunately, are EPIC FAIL.

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers Suharto era 2/24/2009 2:50:41 AM

Suharto.... i don't hammer out long posts any more because the new job i have takes up too much time, but i guess i have to say a few words on Suharto...

Well, AD, It is a complex matter because of the very Nature of Indonesia (an archipelago composed of 17,000 islands, hundreds of languages and many ethnic groups). Meaning that repression usually affected one stratum, leaving the rest enjoying ?stability and prosperity?, while giving an eloquent lesson on what would happen if you crossed the line.

For example, most Indonesians were oblivious or uncaring about what happened in Timor, as it affected a different ethno-linguistic group on a geographically removed island. Do not forget eithetr that the gov't controlled the media and thus no dissenting or negative views were voiced.

Chinese culture was repressed and even Chinese writing and language was outlawed. Chinese-Indonesians were even denied citizenship. Chinese was associated with Communism and thus it was a pretext for persecuting Chinese Indonesians. (by the way, Herald, you will never read this in the press or in books i bet, but there was /is a persistant rumor that Suharto himself was Chinese!.... his background was unclear, he and his wife both had Chinese features.... it would make him akin to Hitler who himself had Jewish heritage and yet nonetheless committed horrible acts against the Jews. is there any truth to this or is it just another example of racism against the Chinese? maybe both...)

Islam was frowned upon, perhaps because it represented a potential power enclave. (some may say the recent explosion in religious feeling is a legacy of the Soeharto era). The unsettling advances of Islam have been possible in the power vacuum.

After Soeharto?s coup, between 100,000 to 1,000,000 were killed out of ?Red? suspicions. To describe killing on such a scale is very difficult. An anecdote may be eloquent. The father of a friend of mine was a police officer during this era and had a daily quota to kill. Unfortunately, there was no budget for bullets, so the killings had to be done by hand: the knife, strangulation, etc. Can you imagine the horror?

As for the ?prosperity? that terror brought, the whole house of cards of the rotting edifice came down in the Financial Crisis. Soeharto brought stability, he spread the wealth thru subsidies to the poor but the corruption of his family bankrupted the nation. So his legacy is mixed at best? (Indonesia has yet to recover from that crisis, by the way)

As for corruption, Softwar, things are slowly improving. (Herald, Billy of Lippo Group whom we recently discussed just got 3 years for bribing a judge, by the way?maybe there is progress). I'm interested that you know about Paiton, Softwar.... very few are aware of this.... it merits a thread in itself, i wish i had the time...

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers Suharto era 2/24/2009 2:53:09 AM

Yes, but you mentioned repression, lack of representation? that surely isn't the case in Indo.

China and Indonesia cannot be equated in this way, as corruption comes with a lack of controls, as in Indo. The PRC uses repression and thus limits corruption. Corruptors are shot dead in China! We are discussing the toss-up between Repression/stability and Openness/corruption, and thus, China and Indo cannot be equated. Indo has its faults, for certain, but they are of a different nature than those of China.

If you simply wish to make the point that Indo is a hotbed of corruption, i agree though...

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers Suharto era 2/24/2009 2:54:26 AM

Yes, but you mentioned repression, lack of representation? that surely isn't the case in Indo.

If you simply wish to make the point that Indo is a hotbed of corruption, i agree though...

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers 2/24/2009 2:59:12 AM

Hehe i'm glad you are aware of the indo boxing scene hehe. let me respond to your views on the 'good ol days" of the suharto years tomorrow, it's 6pm here.... time to go home.

Yea im pretty much a fan of his since he beat Marquez , but he needs to step up though, are you a fan of boxing? i heard Chris will be fighting Rocky Juarez in the US next saturday February 28th at Houston?s Toyota Center, i will be there, hopefully he can get past Juarez if he is to make noise in the US. anyway see you tomorrow man

I'm a big boxing fan! I used to box myself (amateur only of course). It's said here that Chris actually got his start in Wushu before he moved into American Boxing. I envy you being able to see the match live! For sure it will be broadcast here on every tv station hehe. He is very well-known in indo and yes, very wealthy from endorsements.

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 try it on someone else punk. 2/24/2009 7:45:49 AM

One hand clapping.

1. Sure you can call me a commie troll for whatever reason in your head, to be equally racist you are a curry loving towelhead hairy monkey indian ass licker i didn't fire the first shot, but willling to dance all night long

You are so ignorant about history of WG, and you seem to forget that there was no rice in the bowl during 1959-1962 "Mao-made" disaster. In short, you are a commie, and that is now proven true. I didn't call you name merely as an insult. Instead, I call you a commie because you are a commie, as you have proven yourself already. Your ignorance on other's culture and social problems is equally staggering. Given your knowledge level about WG, I can come up with the conclusion that you are also ignorant about the rest of Chinese history, probably except

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 it doesn't surprise me at all, GoG. 2/24/2009 7:55:38 AM

Suharto.... i don't hammer out long posts any more because the new job i have takes up too much time, but i guess i have to say a few words on Suharto...

I'll do some work on Paiton, GoG. I'm not very well informed about that.

As for the rest, it meshes with what I remember from news and from contacts, but I am rather surprised that the reasons for the so called "body mutilations" and corpse dumpimgs reported, which I never took to be the Indonesian way, was simply clumsy killing methods applied due to a lack of bullets. Amazing!

Quote Reply

Softwar Grabbing Threads.... 2/24/2009 8:47:19 AM

Back in the 1990s - I accidently ran accross a Commerce document that noted the ADB (Asian Development Bank) was "skiddish" about President Suharto's daughter being a minority shareholder in a project involving EXIM bank/ADB bank backing. The same document details the "allegations" that the French paid "incentive money" to the Suharto regime in order to land a satellite launch deal.

Being the pain in the butt I am - this led me to do additional FOIAs against both Commerce and State - which brought such gems as "first family involvment" detailing a $50 no payback loan for Suharto's daughter. Typical scam - stock in Paiton given to daughter who used it as collateral for a $50 million loan - with the stipulation that she will pay back the $50 million once the Paiton deal brought profits to the stock holders. Of course, it never will but she still doesn't have to pay back the money.

All of this opened a big can of worms. The State Dept., EXIM bank, Commerce, ADB and a vast array of US corporations not only knew about the bribes but settled for varying amounts of "KKN" (corruption, collusion and nepotism) all very well documented. Edison Mission Energy, Enron, Calenergy, and others. It also brought in Warren Christopher - who not only knew of the bribes but worked to cover it up as well as a host of others in and out of the Clinton administration.

One set of documents on Suharto corruption ended up detailing a secret meeting between Commerce and the CIA - including ex-Lippo banker and illegal DNC donor John Huang. Huang sat throught the secret meeting and reportedly cruised across the street afterwards to his old place of work and placed a long distance call to his ex-boss - Moctar Riady. Huang later pled guilty to passing illegal money to Clinton and cited his Fifth amendment rights over 2000 times when asked if he was working for the Chinese Army.

All of this is detailed with backing documents. You can find a good batch of them here:

LINK

In the end - lawyers for PLN called me and got copies of everything I had - most is on the net. They used it to invalidate the power plant deals since the corruption was approved from the get go. While it is way past the statute of limitations - I think the Foreign Corrupt Practices act does allow for stockholders to sue for the bribes paid out. Sad to say - no one at Edison, Calenergy or others has ever contacted me on that part.

Still - I basically found a thread - that led to a string - that lead to a rope and so on...

Quote Reply

strat-T21C Anal Invader 2/24/2009 12:18:08 PM

That you would use and arguement that a "dictator is a patriot" or "do what needs to be done" shows an incredible lack of understanding of humanity and an ignorant, jaundiced view towards life. Any one who beleves such things are iether a retard or a authoritarian supporting pig who deserves a dance on the end of a rope ( like one of your idols, Mussolini). Many dictators have described themselves as patriots however this is known as "justification" , many criminals do this to lessen the effects of their crimes upon themselves. As an individual from a democratic free nation, I believe this can never be tolorated, the rule of (responsible, representable) law must be upheld for all.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 NEXT