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Subject: What do we do with Pakistan?
RockyMTNClimber    11/28/2008 11:04:42 AM
Pakistan is a nation now at the center of many problems. It's AlQueda's home as well as the Taliban's. Indeed the Paki intelegence services are largely credited with having invented these two murderous institutions. Although the nation of Pakistan asserts they had nothing to do with the Mumbai attacks, it is entirely possible that Pakistani based leadership and financial assistance helped make it possible. Many in Pakistan want the benefits of a western culture and economy while others are openly attempting to start a war with neighboring India and even the US (at the same time).All of this and they have nuclear weapons. What should the world do? Check Six Rocky
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Reality Check, the sequel...   12/8/2008 3:27:13 PM

The strategy advoacted here is similar to rolling a six sides dice and on a roll of 1 to 3 the Muslim fundamentalists obtain a nuke. Of course they will be much easier to control than a bunch of bribable crooks! 

 

And people think it's strange that am I not sold on this idea.

 

This one is to be handled by the best professionals provide with thge best info we have!

 

HJV, hint to you sir. The Muslim fundamentalists have obtained nuclear weapons already. I have even given you examples of how the Muslim fundamentalists have spread the weapons to other despots, thugs, and true monsters. Now since we know that the fundamentalist Muslims have nuclear weapons and that they are giving those weapons to others as well as participating actively in sending terrorists around the world to kill US, what do we do about it?
 
If you disagree with anybody here be specific and tell US what to do.
 
 


 
 
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HERALD1357       12/8/2008 5:19:53 PM





















If we get the means, the opportunity, and THE EXCUSE to take the Paks apart as an object lesson to the rest of the Mideast bandits-namely Saudi Arabia and to a lesser extent Iran-seize it. The best means at hand is to encourage Pak civil war via indirect means [economics for starters]. Most of the Pak nuclear stuff is around Rawalpindi as is most of their rocketry. Center of decision and all of that. Split that off from the rest of the Pak country south along their fractured tribal lines and start chewing off a leg or an arm. Digest them a piece at a time. But in the meantime, play for time and use leverage. Liddell Hart, not von Schlieffen.   












Herald















Can't do that. Pakistan is a key component of our OEF strategy and with the PAK armed forces absolutely stretched to a minimum any civil war would leave thousands of NATO/US troops in a very tough bind logistically and legally as the PAK 3 corps available to help would be pulled. The other 6 corps would have to remain on high readiness against India and with good reason because the Indians would have no way of Knowing what the outcome of a PAK civil war would mean for them. It's absolutely crucial that Pakistan's Gov remain in control of it's military. If not we certainly don't have the troops to make up any losses as long as OIF is still ongoing at current levels. Even a direct war with Pakistan would be better than this from certain points of view.








-DA







SNAP.



 



That is why you cannot do much in Pakistan.



 



QED. Thank you for proving MY original point.






Herald





Herald,

 

Herald trap? Here we go again with the ego. I really hope you aren't digressing back to personal flame threads. If not then disregard the last sentence. I know what your point was. I have been arguing that. for a LONG TIME. I've been screaming to get out of Iraq in large numbers for over a year now. It's also come up in other post as well. In particular with another person, AE, who is familiar with events on the ground there as we discussed Russia recently. And you are quite wrong when you say we cannot do much in Pakistan. Rather, we can do much in Pakistan. The key is a change in strategy. Changes that are underway now.


 

I'm not advocating full scale invasion of Pakistan by the U.S. Military. Its not necessary. What I am advocating are RAIDS/STRIKES against our enemies there and securing the MSR as we did in Iraq. I'm also advocating a reevaluation of our interest in Afghanistan. Christiane Amonpour makes compelling heart felt journalism as she walks among the impoverished oppressed Afghani kids through war torn streets but how is that in our interest. We went there to get at AQ sanctuary. Mission accomplished except now those sanctuaries have moved into Pakistan where they are sheltered. Now a large portion of what we are doing is nation building rather than fighting AQ and allied Taliban. I say allied because any Taliban not affiliated with AQ are not our concern. By reorienting our forces and focusing on our objectives. We will gain much. The means more troops and a willingness to strike into Pakistan itself.


 

 

-DA





It isn't ego, Darth. Its insert foot into mouth disease, yet again.
 
When you read back to me in words exactly what I showed you on a map three days ago date prior to this post when you disagreed with me that there wasn't much you could presently do about Pakistan, then its not me who has the str
 
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DarthAmerica       12/8/2008 6:07:56 PM


It isn't ego, Darth. Its insert foot into mouth disease, yet again.

 

When you read back to me in words exactly what I showed you on a map three days ago date prior to this post when you disagreed with me that there wasn't much you could presently do about Pakistan, then its not me who has the strategy or logic problems.



Herald,
 
You really know how to take an intelligent discussion and throw verbal poop into it. Listen and try to understand from a real professional okay, for once swallow your big ego pride. What I said was that throwing Pakistan into Civil War does not work prior to doing the things I mentioned DOES NOT WORK. How in your mind that translates into some "Herald Trap", List Number 1 2 3 or anything else is below sentient thinking. Now I'd like to stop with the BS per Rockies request and challenge the Issues.
 
There is PLENTY we can do in and with Pakistan militarily. There is Plenty we are doing. Wait until you see whats coming next month. What we cannot do, is send Pakistan into a civil war. Short of that, we can take any number of courses of action some of which I detailed and that will become obvious after the new year.
 
The Bottom line is that What Obama discussed is precisely what needs to be done in order to pressure Pakistan into doing what we want and failing that, doing it for them. Moreover that policy is actually not all too different from what we have been doing for sometime now. 

-DA
 
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RockyMTNClimber        12/8/2008 6:10:50 PM
The question I have meant to ask here acknowledges the following; Pakistan and India are not going to war over Mumbai, but it is not because people in Pakistan aren't trying real hard to start a war. The status quo response from US and the western world in general with regards to Pakistan has been an absolute failure. It has bombed to put it lightly. Based upon  history this much is certain, at some point these butchers will pull off an attack so terrible that war will be the only response left to India and or US.
 
Hence the question of what specific policy changes need to be made to reign in Pakistan's military leadership before that happens. What we need to recognize is that the very same military leadership that funded, trained, and sortied the Mumbai murderers also have Pakistan's nuclear weapons and have already given nuclear technology to our enemies.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
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DarthAmerica       12/8/2008 6:18:14 PM

The question I have meant to ask here acknowledges the following; Pakistan and India are not going to war over Mumbai, but it is not because people in Pakistan aren't trying real hard to start a war. The status quo response from US and the western world in general with regards to Pakistan has been an absolute failure. It has bombed to put it lightly. Based upon  history this much is certain, at some point these butchers will pull off an attack so terrible that war will be the only response left to India and or US.

You are thinking way too short term. Trust me.You als need to consider the timing and disposition of forces, Indian, Pak, and US from about now to the end of Jan.

Hence the question of what specific policy changes need to be made to reign in Pakistan's military leadership before that happens. What we need to recognize is that the very same military leadership that funded, trained, and sortied the Mumbai murderers also have Pakistan's nuclear weapons and have already given nuclear technology to our enemies.

 
That is a matter of speculation I'm afraid Rocky. You are thinking of Pakistan and a homogeneous entity and it most definitely is not.However it is definitely an angle that the US/India show play to an advantage.
 
 
Check Six

 

Rocky

 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    of vengance and burning HUMVEE's.....   12/8/2008 6:35:18 PM




The question I have meant to ask here acknowledges the following; Pakistan and India are not going to war over Mumbai, but it is not because people in Pakistan aren't trying real hard to start a war. The status quo response from US and the western world in general with regards to Pakistan has been an absolute failure. It has bombed to put it lightly. Based upon  history this much is certain, at some point these butchers will pull off an attack so terrible that war will be the only response left to India and or US.


You are thinking way too short term. Trust me.You als need to consider the timing and disposition of forces, Indian, Pak, and US from about now to the end of Jan.

Hence the question of what specific policy changes need to be made to reign in Pakistan's military leadership before that happens. What we need to recognize is that the very same military leadership that funded, trained, and sortied the Mumbai murderers also have Pakistan's nuclear weapons and have already given nuclear technology to our enemies.


That is a matter of speculation I'm afraid Rocky. You are thinking of Pakistan and a homogeneous entity and it most definitely is not.However it is definitely an angle that the US/India show play to an advantage.


Check Six


Rocky




I don't assume Pakistan is homogeneous any more than we are here in the USA. I do assert that it is a naive assumption that the people who control Pakistan's nuclear weapons are fundamentally different than the one's who are committing atrocities in India, the world just does not work like that Darth. I will paint the entire Pakistani military/intelligence apparatus with one brush and with good reason, their history of open warfare against US and other western interests. At one time they were an ally of convenience (during the Cold War) but that day is long past. It is time to make definate changes on a broad scale to turn Pakistan around before they become a smoking hole in Central Asia. In the end these changes are good for Pakistan and will save Pakistani lives as well as the lives of potentially millions of others in countrys all over the world.
Darth, you seem to be hinting that the Bush/Obama adminstrations are going to make significant changes in our policies and that would be good news. The burning of NATO vehicles is a not so subtle warning that we need to let the Paki's continue their murdering ways or they will make life difficult for US. I'd like to think our leadership is willing to stand up today to save lives tomorrow.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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HERALD1357       12/8/2008 6:36:41 PM





It isn't ego, Darth. Its insert foot into mouth disease, yet again.

When you read back to me in words exactly what I showed you on a map three days ago date prior to this post when you disagreed with me that there wasn't much you could presently do about Pakistan, then its not me who has the strategy or logic problems.





Herald,

You really know how to take an intelligent discussion and throw verbal poop into it. Listen and try to understand from a real professional okay, for once swallow your big ego pride. What I said was that throwing Pakistan into Civil War does not work prior to doing the things I mentioned DOES NOT WORK. How in your mind that translates into some "Herald Trap", List Number 1 2 3 or anything else is below sentient thinking. Now I'd like to stop with the BS per Rockies request and challenge the Issues.

There is PLENTY we can do in and with Pakistan militarily. There is Plenty we are doing. Wait until you see whats coming next month. What we cannot do, is send Pakistan into a civil war. Short of that, we can take any number of courses of action some of which I detailed and that will become obvious after the new year.

The Bottom line is that What Obama discussed is precisely what needs to be done in order to pressure Pakistan into doing what we want and failing that, doing it for them. Moreover that policy is actually not all too different from what we have been doing for sometime now. 

-DA



The bottom line, is that you let your own ego cloud you to basic facts on the ground, Darth I just trapped you to show this oddball quirk you have. CREF NGI's on point posting as to facts on the ground. Admit your latest error and learn from it. Professionals, at least good ones, make mistakes because they try anythiong to fix a problem. I make mistakes all the time, but I admit those mistakes honestly and adjust accordingly. You seem to want to go right over that logic cliff with your own errors: twice in a row. I'm not going to do or say anything to help you crawl back from that precipice onto which you climbed, Darth  
 
If you argued something and it didn't work or make sense the first time? Change.
 
Herald
 
 
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DarthAmerica       12/8/2008 6:50:52 PM











It isn't ego, Darth. Its insert foot into mouth disease, yet again.



When you read back to me in words exactly what I showed you on a map three days ago date prior to this post when you disagreed with me that there wasn't much you could presently do about Pakistan, then its not me who has the strategy or logic problems.













Herald,



You really know how to take an intelligent discussion and throw verbal poop into it. Listen and try to understand from a real professional okay, for once swallow your big ego pride. What I said was that throwing Pakistan into Civil War does not work prior to doing the things I mentioned DOES NOT WORK. How in your mind that translates into some "Herald Trap", List Number 1 2 3 or anything else is below sentient thinking. Now I'd like to stop with the BS per Rockies request and challenge the Issues.



There is PLENTY we can do in and with Pakistan militarily. There is Plenty we are doing. Wait until you see whats coming next month. What we cannot do, is send Pakistan into a civil war. Short of that, we can take any number of courses of action some of which I detailed and that will become obvious after the new year.



The Bottom line is that What Obama discussed is precisely what needs to be done in order to pressure Pakistan into doing what we want and failing that, doing it for them. Moreover that policy is actually not all too different from what we have been doing for sometime now. 




-DA









The bottom line, is that you let your own ego cloud you to basic facts on the ground, Darth I just trapped you to show this oddball quirk you have. CREF NGI's on point posting as to facts on the ground. Admit your latest error and learn from it. Professionals, at least good ones, make mistakes because they try anythiong to fix a problem. I make mistakes all the time, but I admit those mistakes honestly and adjust accordingly. You seem to want to go right over that logic cliff with your own errors: twice in a row. I'm not going to do or say anything to help you crawl back from that precipice onto which you climbed, Darth  


 

If you argued something and it didn't work or make sense the first time? Change.

 

Herald


 


Herald,
 
You haven't trapped anything except your own egotistical behavior for all the world to see. Thats fine. You seem to think something I said is in error. Fine, enjoy your opinion. I'm moving own to something more Pakistan Centric rather than Darth-Centric. If you wish to keep picking stupid quarrels you can play all by yourself. In the future if you disagree with something, put my words in quotes and your reply and if I say something obviously wrong I'll happily admit it. I've done so many times here with people who know how to have a non confrontational discussion.
 
-DA
 
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HERALD1357       12/8/2008 6:51:59 PM

The question I have meant to ask here acknowledges the following; Pakistan and India are not going to war over Mumbai, but it is not because people in Pakistan aren't trying real hard to start a war. The status quo response from US and the western world in general with regards to Pakistan has been an absolute failure. It has bombed to put it lightly. Based upon  history this much is certain, at some point these butchers will pull off an attack so terrible that war will be the only response left to India and or US.

 Agreed. But until then?

Hence the question of what specific policy changes need to be made to reign in Pakistan's military leadership before that happens. What we need to recognize is that the very same military leadership that funded, trained, and sortied the Mumbai murderers also have Pakistan's nuclear weapons and have already given nuclear technology to our enemies.

Well? Short of war to keep our supply lines open through Kuwait as well as into Afghanistan and to wipe out the Pak nuclear forces, what would you do? If  you choose that war option, Rocky, with what ARMY are you going to do it? 

India has no current incentive to risk war,. and we don't have the strength. So we are back to the question of what can we do economically with soft power in the mean time to help India for when it comes time for hard power to respond to a suitable Pak outrage. Whether or not we like it, at some future date we either finance reform on Pakistan; or we fight to inflict reform. Somebody's riflemen will have to be on Islamabad to enforce it.

Political reform comes out of the barrel of a gun or out of the ballot box. Money is cheaper than blood.

Herald
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    Keep whirling away, Darth.   12/8/2008 6:58:47 PM























It isn't ego, Darth. Its insert foot into mouth disease, yet again.







When you read back to me in words exactly what I showed you on a map three days ago date prior to this post when you disagreed with me that there wasn't much you could presently do about Pakistan, then its not me who has the strategy or logic problems.





























Herald,







You really know how to take an intelligent discussion and throw verbal poop into it. Listen and try to understand from a real professional okay, for once swallow your big ego pride. What I said was that throwing Pakistan into Civil War does not work prior to doing the things I mentioned DOES NOT WORK. How in your mind that translates into some "Herald Trap", List Number 1 2 3 or anything else is below sentient thinking. Now I'd like to stop with the BS per Rockies request and challenge the Issues.







There is PLENTY we can do in and with Pakistan militarily. There is Plenty we are doing. Wait until you see whats coming next month. What we cannot do, is send Pakistan into a civil war. Short of that, we can take any number of courses of action some of which I detailed and that will become obvious after the new year.







The Bottom line is that What Obama discussed is precisely what needs to be done in order to pressure Pakistan into doing what we want and failing that, doing it for them. Moreover that policy is actually not all too different from what we have been doing for sometime now. 










-DA





















The bottom line, is that you let your own ego cloud you to basic facts on the ground, Darth I just trapped you to show this oddball quirk you have. CREF NGI's on point posting as to facts on the ground. Admit your latest error and learn from it. Professionals, at least good ones, make mistakes because they try anythiong to fix a problem. I make mistakes all the time, but I admit those mistakes honestly and adjust accordingly. You seem to want to go right over that logic cliff with your own errors: twice in a row. I'm not going to do or say anything to help you crawl back from that precipice onto which you climbed, Darth  






 



If you argued something and it didn't work or make sense the first time? Change.



 



Herald






 






Herald,

 

You haven't trapped anything except your own egotistical behavior for all the world to see. Thats fine. You seem to think something I said is in error. Fine, enjoy your opinion. I'm moving own to something more Pakistan Centric rather than Darth-Centric. If you wish to keep picking stupid quarrels you can play all by yourself. In the future if you disagree with something, put my words in quotes and your reply and if I say something obviously wrong I'll happily admit it. I've done so many times here with people who know how to have a non confrontational discussion.

 

-DA


You've lost contact with the subject again which is what to do about Pakistan. This isn't about your ego defense.

Make a sensible fact based suggestion and quit trying to make vague assertions about troop dispositions and alignments. Those factors are very fluid and frankly, with respect to India at least, not subject to your misinterpretations of supposed fact.
 
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