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Subject: What do we do with Pakistan?
RockyMTNClimber    11/28/2008 11:04:42 AM
Pakistan is a nation now at the center of many problems. It's AlQueda's home as well as the Taliban's. Indeed the Paki intelegence services are largely credited with having invented these two murderous institutions. Although the nation of Pakistan asserts they had nothing to do with the Mumbai attacks, it is entirely possible that Pakistani based leadership and financial assistance helped make it possible. Many in Pakistan want the benefits of a western culture and economy while others are openly attempting to start a war with neighboring India and even the US (at the same time).All of this and they have nuclear weapons. What should the world do? Check Six Rocky
 
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DarthAmerica    Rocky...   12/9/2008 2:24:49 PM
...One more thing. As I said constantly pre-election Obama is demonstrating that he is much more moderate than liberal and with regard to Pakistan I think thats going to bode well for us to have a balanced approach to dealing with them.
 
-DA

 
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FJV    I disagree   12/9/2008 3:05:13 PM
"You do what you can. If you sow chaos among the Paks, then you can move in and raid specifically to destroy their stockpiles. Its the best you can do, under a very bad set of options, if you have to move immediately. Every day I expect to read in the news that some bunch of lunatics from that part of the world has unleashed"
 
If you sow chaos among the Paks, then the fundamentalists may be able to exploit that situation faster than you can. The chaos created also loosens the controls that are on these nukes. The chaos sowing is a knife that cuts both ways in my opinion.
 
And there is the fact that the information publicly available is not sufficient enough to asess wether such raids can even be pulled off with a reasonable chance of succes. That info is likely to be classified. I have no way of knowing if I'm making it more difficult or easier for the fundamentalists.
 
Then there are the rumours that behind the scenes the US is working with the Pakistani govt. to tigthen the controls on these nukes and putting additional controls into place to prevent accidents. Actively making destabilizing efforts against Pakistan stops such usefull efforts. "http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles2004/2004214.asp"
 
American nuclear security experts are working with Pakistan to equip Pakistani nukes with electronic locks that prevent the weapons from being used by anyone who does not have the proper codes. This means that if any Pakistanis try and sell an actual a-bomb, they will have to get the codes as well. This won't make it impossible for a Pakistani bomb to be sold, just more difficult.
 
My guess is that the strategy that deal with this is going to be like walking tightrope, where just the right balance must be used. I would expect that several of the US's finest strategists are looking at scenarios concerning Pakistan with at their disposal the best (classified) info available.
 
I continue to disagree with the consensus here. I cannot recommend destabilizing Pakistan based on the information that is publicly available. To make such recommendations I would have to have acces to classified material. You can be assured that the persons with such access won't be posting their conclusions on a public forum.
 

 
 

 
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HERALD1357       12/9/2008 3:30:15 PM

"You do what you can. If
you sow chaos among the Paks, then you can move in and raid
specifically to destroy their stockpiles. Its the best you can do,
under a very bad set of options, if you have to move
immediately. Every day I expect to read in the news that some bunch of
lunatics from that part of the world has unleashed"


If you sow chaos among the Paks, then the fundamentalists may be able to exploit that situation faster than you can. The chaos created also loosens the controls that are on these nukes. The chaos sowing is a knife that cuts both ways in my opinion.

Bear in mind, that my original point is that we are in a tough spot geographically and economically and that without India there wasn't and isn't much we can do. 

And there is the fact that the information publicly available is not sufficient enough to asess wether such raids can even be pulled off with a reasonable chance of succes. That info is likely to be classified. I have no way of knowing if I'm making it more difficult or easier for the fundamentalists.

I have just enough information available to me to know that Darth is whistling Dixie. Pakistan is a hornet's nest I'd rather burn with fire than touch with gloved hands if you understand the metaphor.
 
Then there are the rumours that behind the scenes the US is working with the Pakistani govt. to tighten the controls on these nukes and putting additional controls into place to prevent accidents. Actively making destabilizing efforts against Pakistan stops such usefull efforts. "http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles2004/2004214.asp"
 
I don't know this. Its my impression that the Paks have exerted considerablke efforts to keep the US away from their nuclear programs ever since we connected all the dots between them, the DPRK, and the PRCs in linking them all together iun a common conspiracy to violate the NPT. 
 
American nuclear security experts are working with Pakistan to equip
Pakistani nukes with electronic locks that prevent the weapons from
being used by anyone who does not have the proper codes. This means
that if any Pakistanis try and sell an actual a-bomb, they will have to
get the codes as well. This won't make it impossible for a Pakistani
bomb to be sold, just more difficult.


I would prefer just to sabotage the bombs. If we can get that close to their stockpile, then we should disrupt the devices. 
 
My guess is that the strategy that deals with this is going to be like walking tightrope, where just the right balance must be used. I would expect that several of the US's finest strategists are looking at scenarios concerning Pakistan with at their disposal the best (classified) info available.

I don't put faith in the cast of clowns who misled us into Iraq.
 
 I continue to disagree with the consensus here. I cannot recommend destabilizing
Pakistan based on the information that is publicly available. To make
such recommendations I would have to have acces to classified material.
You can be assured that the persons with such access won't be posting
their conclusions on a public forum.

I don't see that they will give us much choice. Option A.: either we destabilize them and move in the chaos we create, or option B. they will destabilize themselves, and then we are forced to move in a chaos we have no clue of how to map. Option A. gives us a small chance of navuigating through like it did in Panama. Option B. gives us no chance at all.
 
Herald 


 
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RockyMTNClimber    FJV reply   12/10/2008 10:41:14 AM
I continue to disagree with the consensus here. I cannot recommend destabilizing Pakistan based on the information that is publicly available. To make such recommendations I would have to have acces to classified material. You can be assured that the persons with such access won't be posting their conclusions on a public forum.<FJV

I don't necessarily recommend destabilizing Pakistan although it may be a consequence of actions I would take. Begin by the US, India, and other Allies who are ready to end this insanity declaring the obvious: Pakistan is a terror state that needs to be made healthy, one way or the other. Second, a purposeful and continuous ratcheting up of the pressure on all aspects of Pakistan's existence, economic, diplomatic, and military. No sanctuary. The allies strike at targets when Pakistan refuses to act, Waziristan is open to air and commando operations. Push the Pakistani military leadership into a hole and leave them there. This must be an international effort to prevent India being isolated against Pakistan for the reasons wjr mentioned above. Finally, the fundamentalist Islamic Jihadi's have nuclear weapons and have already caused terrible problems with them, refusing to acknowledge that in the west is part of the problem here.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky


 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Darth   12/10/2008 10:51:32 AM

...One more thing. As I said constantly pre-election Obama is demonstrating that he is much more moderate than liberal and with regard to Pakistan I think thats going to bode well for us to have a balanced approach to dealing with them.

 -DA
 
Darth, you are really a one note somba here. Respectfully, A retired Chicagoland street organizer with a PRC lobbyist for Secratary of State and a demonstrated moron for Vice President are not the answer to anything! I shudder to think what the Obama, Biden, Clinton brain-trust has in store for US.
 
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DarthAmerica       12/10/2008 2:37:40 PM




...One more thing. As I said constantly pre-election Obama is demonstrating that he is much more moderate than liberal and with regard to Pakistan I think thats going to bode well for us to have a balanced approach to dealing with them.



 -DA

 

Darth, you are really a one note somba here. Respectfully, A retired Chicagoland street organizer with a PRC lobbyist for Secratary of State and a demonstrated moron for Vice President are not the answer to anything! I shudder to think what the Obama, Biden, Clinton brain-trust has in store for US.



Rocky,
 
You all need to understand something. I'm not in this for ideological reasons. I can throw mud at ANY POLITICIAN. FOr instance John McCain selling America out to Mexico with his open borders nonsense that I suffer from every day in a city crowded by illegals. Read again, ANY POLITICIAN. What I'm really concerned with are the issues. We can whine and moan all we want about how Hillary is this, Biden is that and Obama is an sevant of the Devil. Heck for kicks I even listen to this YouTube Subscription about Obama ALL THE TIME and some of it I agree with to a point...
 
 
 
...You want to talk about hating Obama and friends that guy is in the top of that class. Anyway, the point is we got who we got as POTUS so lets rationally and unemotionally talk about his ideas and plans to deal with Pakistan.
 
 
Have you noticed that Obama is saying he wants to do the same things you said. Defense wise he has picked a cabinet that will pursue that agenda with enthusiasm. What is your major beef seriously? And so what if I like Obama? Thats my personal decision. Doesn't validate or invaidate anything. What is that an issue for anybody? COnservatives need to accept the fact that McCain lost and the GOP as usual strategies for dealing with these things are on hold for at least the next 4 years.
 
 
Rocky, what fundamentally do you disagree with about what Obama said with respect to Pakistan?
 
 
 
Regards
DA
 


 
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RockyMTNClimber    Darth reply   12/10/2008 3:53:06 PM
Have you noticed that Obama is saying he wants to do the same things you said.<Darth   
 
Yes I have followed this very closely and I have not heard anything definitive from him (except he didn't talk to the Ill Gov. about his vacant seat.... roightttt). That's okay for now since we only have one POTUS at a time. I'll give Obama credit when he earns it, in the mean time, anything he says should be coordinated with Bush or just kept tight until it's his turn at bat. I'm not a Obama basher and the things I say 'bout Hillary and Biden are stone cold accurate, as you well know.
 
You do go on a bit too much about Obama though Darth, let's not give him spurs until he figures out how to get on the horse (he'll just hurt himself with sharp objects at this point). He's an untested rookie right now (God help him and US). 
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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DarthAmerica       12/10/2008 5:09:00 PM

Have you noticed that Obama is saying he wants to do the same things you said.<Darth   
 

Yes I have followed this very closely and I have not heard anything definitive from him (except he didn't talk to the Ill Gov. about his vacant seat.... roightttt). That's okay for now since we only have one POTUS at a time. I'll give Obama credit when he earns it, in the mean time, anything he says should be coordinated with Bush or just kept tight until it's his turn at bat. I'm not a Obama basher and the things I say 'bout Hillary and Biden are stone cold accurate, as you well know.

 

You do go on a bit too much about Obama though Darth, let's not give him spurs until he figures out how to get on the horse (he'll just hurt himself with sharp objects at this point). He's an untested rookie right now (God help him and US). 

 

Check Six

 

Rocky


Rocky,
 
I'm not giving Obama his spurs yet. His Spur Ride doesnt start til next year. All I'm saying is that if he does the things he said he would do RE Pakistan, the I support it and how does that differ fundamentally from what both you and I seem to be in agreement on? One more time...
 
youtube.com/watch?v=uw2XTC1V4fk
 
How does that differ from what you said? You say you want to do something about it so that we can avoid paying the cost of inaction later did you not? You also said we should build a coalition including the Indians to go in and clean up the toilet known as Pakistan. Obama is in lock step with the current US/Indian plan which is in action right now to do just that. BTW, there is a CVN near Pakistan just as an FYI to our discussion on the issue a few post back. The CVN-71. Not saying it's up to something but its there.
 
-DA
 
 


 
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RockyMTNClimber    Yippee Kayaaaeee....   12/10/2008 5:52:09 PM
His Spur Ride doesnt start til next year- Darth
 
One earns his spurs with smart work not the passage of time (if you post one more youtube of your hero I will puke!)
 
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RockyMTNClimber    The Madrasas of Pakistan   12/11/2008 1:17:14 PM
 This is a 36 page study (well sourced) that outlines the connections between Saudi Wahhabi-ism, Saudi money, the Paki ISI and Paki Madrasas in the creation of these suicide units. It makes good reading for westerners who don't have trouble sleeping at night, yet. The best thing about this paper is it actually spells out how Pakistan can take steps to change itself, if the political will and the Saudi money behind the hate can be dried up.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
 ht***tp://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:jhKIq3GpYSQJ:se2.isn.ch/serviceengine/FileContent%3FserviceID%3D10%26fileid%3DB05D4303-FF37-F6A0-C2E7-A931F1715E85%26lng%3Den+Darsatul+Islamia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
 
VI. CONCLUSION
If the government?s inaction has allowed well-financed networks of madrasas, sectarian parties and militant groups to flourish in Karachi and elsewhere in Pakistan, these now pose a significant threat not only to the city?s residents but also to domestic stability and regional and international security. The madrasa sector is thriving because of a mix of factors including poverty and lack of job opportunities; deplorable public schools; the sectarian tilt of state institutions; and the military government?s reliance for political survival on the religious parties and its attempts to marginalise moderate voices and forces. For madrasa reform to succeed, the government must:
&o6256;&o6457; close extremist and jihadi madrasas and effectively enforce existing bans on sectarian and jihadi groups;
 
&o6256;&o6457; regulate madrasas effectively, including by monitoring teachers and students, financial flows and expenditures;
 
&o6256;&o6457; reform the curriculum?s religious content to exclude sectarian and pro-jihad teachings, instead of attempting to mainstream madrasas; and
 
&o6256;&o6457; enforce existing laws that ban hate speech and incitement to violence, prevent the use of madrasas for sectarian and violent propaganda and regulate the use of public lands.

Instead of financially supporting the MRP or related projects, donors should support the reform of the public school sector. This would be far more effective in neutralising the mass appeal of madrasas and their sectarian messages. The capacity and quality of public education, which is woefully lacking in resources, should be developed, and reforms undertaken to ensure that it can provide an education that leads to gainful employment. The government?s pledges to substantially increase spending on education have yet to  materialise. At 2.7 per cent of GDP, it remains far below the 4 per cent UNESCO recommends. In December 2005, Education Minister Javed Ashraf Qazi promised to raise the education budget from 2.7 per cent of GDP to 4 per cent in the next year?s budget. In January 2007, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and his cabinet again vowed that the education budget would be raised to 4 per cent of GDP.
169 The dropout rate is
 
 
169 Some educators believe that expenditure on education doesnot exceed 2.4 per cent of GDP. See Abbas Rashid, ?Walking the talk on education?,
 
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