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Subject: America's Worst Enemy in History
mongyu    1/2/2008 8:16:10 AM
The title says it all: Who do you think has been the greatest enemy ever to threaten America? My vote goes to the British hands down. No other country ever came as close as the British to physically ending the United States in our history. The Germans and the Japanese were formidable in their own right, but neither [or even both] could reasonably invade the United States. The Soviet Union had the theoretical potential to destroy the United States, but I think everyone agrees that this was not a practical capability in the way the British Empire's ability to take Washington DC was. The Soviets were a dangerous enemy ideologically in the way it could convert adherents in America, but they never out-did the British who successfully supported a rebellion in the United States by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy. So what country would you choose?
 
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the British Lion       1/2/2008 9:37:31 AM
"by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy"

I'm not aware of the Brits funding or arming the Confederacy. We traded with them, sure, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we just gave them supplies because we wanted the U.S. to fail. At least not as government policy. We traded with the U.S. just as much.
It is true that many in Britain had sympathy for the Confederate cause, but our government couldn't outright support the Confederacy because of slavery. In fact, that was one of the key reasons Lincoln made the emancipation proclamation.. to keep Britain and France out of it.


As for Britain being your greatest enemy, I think that's true to a point. Yes, we could have (in theory) ended your existence as a nation... but we didn't have the national will or desire to do it. So, does that really make us your greatest enemy? Wouldn't the nations who actually did and do want to destroy you outright be more suitable for that crown? Ie, Soviet Russia, North Korea, Islamic terrorist states, etc...

B.L.
 
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Softwar       1/2/2008 10:13:18 AM
I submit that no nation posed more of a direct threat to the USA than the Soviet Union.  While we did fight Germany twice in the past century and the British did burn Washington DC in 1812 - no nation stood much of a chance of obliterating the USA except the Soviet Union.  We nearly went to nuclear war with the Soviet and today we are still fighting the legacy left by the communists (China, North Korea and the billions of dollars of Soviet era weapons technology).
 
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mongyu       1/2/2008 10:15:49 AM

"by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy"

I'm not aware of the Brits funding or arming the Confederacy. We traded with them, sure, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we just gave them supplies because we wanted the U.S. to fail. At least not as government policy. We traded with the U.S. just as much.
It is true that many in Britain had sympathy for the Confederate cause, but our government couldn't outright support the Confederacy because of slavery. In fact, that was one of the key reasons Lincoln made the emancipation proclamation.. to keep Britain and France out of it.


As for Britain being your greatest enemy, I think that's true to a point. Yes, we could have (in theory) ended your existence as a nation... but we didn't have the national will or desire to do it. So, does that really make us your greatest enemy? Wouldn't the nations who actually did and do want to destroy you outright be more suitable for that crown? Ie, Soviet Russia, North Korea, Islamic terrorist states, etc...

B.L.

 
Heh.  Don't worry, British Lion, I'm not out to pick a fight - I'm here to have fun.  Call it an academic exercise, heck I thought some brits might take it as a compliment (Oh and Happy New Year).
 
What I wrote about the British Empire (different era, different people, NOT trying to implicate "you") during our Civil War was based on what I remember from American History class in High School a few years back; a little vague, but I'll check the internet in a little while to make sure of the facts.
 
Off the top of my head, I was taught the British helped build a Confederate Navy which devastated the Union's shipping as well as smuggled weaponry.  They also loaned the Confederacy the money to buy the weapons and tried to negotiate a truce between the warring parties that would give the South independence.
 
I'll read up on it in the mean time to make sure though.
 
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mongyu       1/2/2008 10:21:42 AM
As for Britain being your greatest enemy, I think that's true to a point. Yes, we could have (in theory) ended your existence as a nation... but we didn't have the national will or desire to do it.

Now, now, there...I don't think the British Empire didn't end America's existence for lack of trying.  Come on  B.L.  :)  Give the poor Americans a little credit. T_T
 
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mongyu       1/2/2008 10:45:31 AM

I submit that no nation posed more of a direct threat to the USA than the Soviet Union.  While we did fight Germany twice in the past century and the British did burn Washington DC in 1812 - no nation stood much of a chance of obliterating the USA except the Soviet Union.  We nearly went to nuclear war with the Soviet and today we are still fighting the legacy left by the communists (China, North Korea and the billions of dollars of Soviet era weapons technology).


I considered that, but again, I'm not sure if the Soviets "realistically" came as close as the British.  I guess it depends on how you weight the Soviet's ability to countenance Mutually Assured Destruction or whether they doubted American Will to retaliate enough to take action.  Difference of opinion, I guess. 
I do, however, think that the ideological challenge posed by the Soviets was formidable.  We're DEFINITELY still dealing with that.  Heck, some people say that humanity's been dealing with socialist vs capitalist models since antiquity BM (before Marx).
 
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the British Lion       1/2/2008 10:54:50 AM



"by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy"

I'm not aware of the Brits funding or arming the Confederacy. We traded with them, sure, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we just gave them supplies because we wanted the U.S. to fail. At least not as government policy. We traded with the U.S. just as much.
It is true that many in Britain had sympathy for the Confederate cause, but our government couldn't outright support the Confederacy because of slavery. In fact, that was one of the key reasons Lincoln made the emancipation proclamation.. to keep Britain and France out of it.


As for Britain being your greatest enemy, I think that's true to a point. Yes, we could have (in theory) ended your existence as a nation... but we didn't have the national will or desire to do it. So, does that really make us your greatest enemy? Wouldn't the nations who actually did and do want to destroy you outright be more suitable for that crown? Ie, Soviet Russia, North Korea, Islamic terrorist states, etc...

B.L.


 

Heh.  Don't worry, British Lion, I'm not out to pick a fight - I'm here to have fun.  Call it an academic exercise, heck I thought some brits might take it as a compliment (Oh and Happy New Year).

 

What I wrote about the British Empire (different era, different people, NOT trying to implicate "you") during our Civil War was based on what I remember from American History class in High School a few years back; a little vague, but I'll check the internet in a little while to make sure of the facts.

 

Off the top of my head, I was taught the British helped build a Confederate Navy which devastated the Union's shipping as well as smuggled weaponry.  They also loaned the Confederacy the money to buy the weapons and tried to negotiate a truce between the warring parties that would give the South independence.

 

I'll read up on it in the mean time to make sure though.

Sorry mate, I didn't intend for my reply to sound defensive at all. I know you weren't attacking me or my country at all, so it's cool :) Happy New Year to you too btw!

But you're right, we did trade with the Confeds in arms and the dreaded CSS Alabama I believe was British built... but, that being said, I'm not aware of us showing great favor to the Confeds in our traded... I think we traded more with them because they needed to trade with us more... the Union could manufacture most of what it needed to fight with. Granted, I'm sure our sympathies played a role, but ultimatly I think we just were in it for the cash lol "a nation of shopkeepers" remember?

B.L.

 
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the British Lion       1/2/2008 11:01:13 AM

As for Britain being your greatest enemy, I think that's true to a point. Yes, we could have (in theory) ended your existence as a nation... but we didn't have the national will or desire to do it.


Now, now, there...I don't think the British Empire didn't end America's existence for lack of trying.  Come on  B.L.  :)  Give the poor Americans a little credit. T_T


Now now, we both know it was the French that really won that war ;)

B.L.
 
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mongyu       1/2/2008 11:02:15 AM

I submit that no nation posed more of a direct threat to the USA than the Soviet Union.  While we did fight Germany twice in the past century and the British did burn Washington DC in 1812 - no nation stood much of a chance of obliterating the USA except the Soviet Union.  We nearly went to nuclear war with the Soviet and today we are still fighting the legacy left by the communists (China, North Korea and the billions of dollars of Soviet era weapons technology).


I considered that, but again, I'm not sure if the Soviets "realistically" came as close as the British.  I guess it depends on how you weight the Soviet's ability to countenance Mutually Assured Destruction or whether they doubted American Will to retaliate enough to take action.  Difference of opinion, I guess. 
I do, however, think that the ideological challenge posed by the Soviets was formidable.  We're DEFINITELY still dealing with that.  Heck, some people say that humanity's been dealing with socialist vs capitalist models since antiquity BM (before Marx).
 
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paul1970       1/2/2008 11:21:36 AM







"by funding, arming, and giving moral support to the Confederacy"

I'm not aware of the Brits funding or arming the Confederacy. We traded with them, sure, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we just gave them supplies because we wanted the U.S. to fail. At least not as government policy. We traded with the U.S. just as much.
It is true that many in Britain had sympathy for the Confederate cause, but our government couldn't outright support the Confederacy because of slavery. In fact, that was one of the key reasons Lincoln made the emancipation proclamation.. to keep Britain and France out of it.


As for Britain being your greatest enemy, I think that's true to a point. Yes, we could have (in theory) ended your existence as a nation... but we didn't have the national will or desire to do it. So, does that really make us your greatest enemy? Wouldn't the nations who actually did and do want to destroy you outright be more suitable for that crown? Ie, Soviet Russia, North Korea, Islamic terrorist states, etc...

B.L.




 



Heh.  Don't worry, British Lion, I'm not out to pick a fight - I'm here to have fun.  Call it an academic exercise, heck I thought some brits might take it as a compliment (Oh and Happy New Year).



 



What I wrote about the British Empire (different era, different people, NOT trying to implicate "you") during our Civil War was based on what I remember from American History class in High School a few years back; a little vague, but I'll check the internet in a little while to make sure of the facts.



 



Off the top of my head, I was taught the British helped build a Confederate Navy which devastated the Union's shipping as well as smuggled weaponry.  They also loaned the Confederacy the money to buy the weapons and tried to negotiate a truce between the warring parties that would give the South independence.



 



I'll read up on it in the mean time to make sure though.



Sorry mate, I didn't intend for my reply to sound defensive at all. I know you weren't attacking me or my country at all, so it's cool :) Happy New Year to you too btw!

But you're right, we did trade with the Confeds in arms and the dreaded CSS Alabama I believe was British built... but, that being said, I'm not aware of us showing great favor to the Confeds in our traded... I think we traded more with them because they needed to trade with us more... the Union could manufacture most of what it needed to fight with. Granted, I'm sure our sympathies played a role, but ultimatly I think we just were in it for the cash lol "a nation of shopkeepers" remember?

B.L.


it should be noted that Britain traded with the Union at the same time as the CSA.... it did not pick a side in the civil war.
 
also note that an awful lot of Britain's (both mainland and colonials) joined up and fought for the Union against the CSA.... far more than signed up for the CSA (which tends to be more talked about for some reason)
 
Paul
 
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Softwar       1/2/2008 11:23:47 AM




I submit that no nation posed more of a direct threat to the USA than the Soviet Union.  While we did fight Germany twice in the past century and the British did burn Washington DC in 1812 - no nation stood much of a chance of obliterating the USA except the Soviet Union.  We nearly went to nuclear war with the Soviet and today we are still fighting the legacy left by the communists (China, North Korea and the billions of dollars of Soviet era weapons technology).




I considered that, but again, I'm not sure if the Soviets "realistically" came as close as the British.  I guess it depends on how you weight the Soviet's ability to countenance Mutually Assured Destruction or whether they doubted American Will to retaliate enough to take action.  Difference of opinion, I guess. 

I do, however, think that the ideological challenge posed by the Soviets was formidable.  We're DEFINITELY still dealing with that.  Heck, some people say that humanity's been dealing with socialist vs capitalist models since antiquity BM (before Marx).


The US and USSR nearly came to nuclear blows not less than 3 times during the Cold War.  The fact that such a war would have ended civilization as we know it in comparison to a temporary set back to the US either in 1776 or 1812 shows exactly how dangerous the Soviet Union was. 
The proxy wars that took place all through the Cold War were a direct result of the strategy from Moscow toward a global communist state.  One single weapon - the AK-47 - from the Soviet era still dominates the world in warfare today.
 
Having faced the Soviets at the Fulda gap - I know personally that the 30 Soviet armored divisions in East Germany were an unstoppable force.  We used to joke - with some factual basis - that you could step up on a T-72 at the border and not set your feet back on the ground until you reached the Polish border.
 
Despite the wars on US soil by the UK (e.g. 1812) the threat was never anywhere near 50,000 tanks, 12,000 combat aircraft, 6,000 ballistic missiles, 60,000 nuclear warheads and 5 million men poised from pole to pole - ready to fight a doomsday war.
 
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